Find Your Fix- Sport Dog Scent Detection Podcast- ON THE ROAD AGAIN !
Hey Everyone !
THE NEXT EPISODE OF THE K9 SCENT FIX PODCAST is on the ROAD !!! Join us WEDNESDAY JUNE 4 2025 live at 7 PM MT as we TRAVEL TO TRIAL ! LIVE from wherever we are, we will chat about Trial Travel and all its ups and downs and fun adventures ! Well mostly fun, some trips may be more adventure than others, but GOOD STORIES to share, nonetheless.
ASK us your questions to be included in our PODCAST production !
TOPIC- ON THE ROAD AGAIN TO TRIALS - TIPS FROM THE ROAD
VISIT US ON FACEBOOK TOO ! Let us know your TOPICS for our next PODCAST !
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1478838949483329/
Find Your Fix- Sport Dog Scent Detection Podcast- ON THE ROAD AGAIN !
Pooling and Trapping- the Source Imposter
When your dog alerts away from the actual hide location, are they making a mistake or has the scent truly collected elsewhere? In this deep-dive episode, we tackle the phenomenon of "pooling and trapping" - one of the most challenging and misunderstood concepts in scent detection work.
Alex and Jill break down exactly what happens when odor molecules migrate from their source and accumulate in quantities significant enough to fool even experienced dogs. They share fascinating observations about how humidity dramatically changes scent pictures, with Alex and Jill describing how "sticky" odor in Minnesota presents different challenges than the "dust in the wind" patterns we see in drier climates.
The conversation provides practical training progression ideas for handlers wanting to build clearer source understanding in their dogs. Starting with accessible hides and using barriers where dogs learn to push through to source and create search dogs who don't give up when encountering pooling. They also tackle the human side of the equation - how handlers often get stuck in pooling areas out of fear of missing hides, or making alert decisions before our dogs and how recognizing repetitive behavior patterns can help teams move forward productively.
Whether you're competing at elite levels or just starting your scent detection journey, this episode offers valuable insights into creating better odor clarity for your dog while improving your own observation skills. After all, as Jill notes, "The dog solves the problem with its supercomputer called an olfactory system" - our job is learning to recognize and trust what they're telling us about the complex world of scent.
Ready to be the Odor Lifeguard and pull yourself out of the "pooling problem"? Listen now and discover how to become the lifeguard your team needs!
Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast, canine Scent Fix. I'm here with Alex Woodruff and we're going to get started. We're going to be talking about imposters today. Actually, alex has constructed a little bit of a different topic, but when I got thinking about pooling and trapping, I decided pooling and trapping is indeed an imposter. So there, so that's why we are hitting our imposters, right, yeah, I decided pooling and trapping is indeed an imposter. So there, so that's why we are hitting our imposters, right yeah, but as it relates to odor, so basically the concept of pooling and trapping the source, imposter.
Speaker 2:How do you like that? That's good. So I was thinking for today, and maybe because it's top of my mind, but, um, the effect of pooling and so pooling odor, meaning odor collecting away from source, maybe within source too, because you can have pooling near the hide or you can have pooling where it's away from the hide, all of those kinds of situations, and how do we actually understand that it's pooling? How does the dog understand it? How do we set that up for training? I find like this is the thing that gets asked for most if I have to go do a seminar somewhere or my students are struggling with something. This seems to be the topic that keeps coming up, and it's one that I did for my online class this past week, and so it's really top of the mind, but I think it is a big problem. Problem challenge.
Speaker 1:When you do complexity for upper level competition, yes, and I think that it really creeps into the conversation, not so much at one, and I think a lot of it has to do with once we introduce the inaccessible hide into the picture. Right, because at one our hides are pretty available, odor, and the dog really has this because of the level of how we're setting those hides, like a nice clarity and a clear pathway to source, right, Right.
Speaker 1:Then we start to source right, right, then we start to make the environment more complex, we start to make the objects that are in the search a larger number of them maybe even clutter, all those things that then create all of those factors that contribute to the collection or quantification of odor on various things in the environment, and that then creates the pooling right. So then, what's the difference between pooling and pooling and trapping?
Speaker 2:I think the pooling and trapping is such a very I don't know, it's a term that I hear with any CSW, but it's not necessarily to me personally significantly different than the word pooling, other than it elicits the idea trapping, meaning, like odors, collecting in some sort of quantified amount, like in an object on an object within a space, and so then it could act almost as similar to a lesser strength source, but without really a point source. That's kind of where my mind goes with pooling and trapping versus just pooling in general.
Speaker 1:So some of the trapping that I've seen and boy this last summit that I just did in St Paul, so evident to me. So, and part of that was because of the difference of odor in Colorado or in our dry climates versus humid odor, oh my goodness, source odor could travel to an object and then it would like disengage. There was no longer a little pathway between where it was in the source and where it was collecting on this object. It was like no longer connected. There were no longer breadcrumbs that led back to source. So, and I really saw that a lot in this humidity I really would not have had I not experienced it, and granted it was warm temperatures outside plus high humidity.
Speaker 1:So you know it may not be something that happens in Minnesota like all the time with their odor but, I, definitely experienced it in setting hides right and watching dogs, dog after dog after dog, really happened in the trial that you and I did in Inver. I always get this wrong Inver.
Speaker 2:Grove Heights.
Speaker 1:I said the Heights Grove instead of Inver Grove Heights, at a wonderful school that our friends Melissa and Autumn Fenmar were the hosts and I set one for the elite, where I literally had a chair. It was a chair hide, it was not anything complex, it was a chair hide, it was not anything complex. And the odor had moved and accumulated to some objects that were close to the perimeter and there was like no connectivity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we saw that in my NW2 as well. There's just a single chair and what's interesting is those are situations that are inside, so they're not even direct impact from the heat. Outside the humidity is there, but inside there's AC going on, but it's maybe the dog's perception of it. Maybe is there a piece of that versus just odor information itself. That's being a little bit funny.
Speaker 1:Right, because I think that the only way I mean right to really make those statements and say no, this is the way it is scientifically, we'd have to have a chamber or some way to take the same dog at the same level into those same environments.
Speaker 1:But based on my observation and my experience that I'm bringing to the table, I typically would have expected the dog to go to the perimeter, investigate the odor quantification there, maybe drop their nose, move past the chair right, kind of going downwind turn around and come back upwind, if you will, and catch the odor on the chair and identify it as being a quantification similar to source right.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it really was a case of where the dogs had to disassociate. So they were very good about understanding that that pooling and if we want to call it trapping I'm just going to throw that out there that trapping was where there wasn't this downwind connection, right. So it seemed like it was disassociated and that the dogs then had to kind of like discard it because it wasn't quite quantity enough to be an inaccessible. They weren't pressing into it, right. So they understood.
Speaker 1:The dogs totally understood that it was not source, it wasn't the origination of the odor, that they were of the source and the odor that they were seeking, right, right, yeah, so it was disjointed, it was away from. So then they would just move into other parts of the room and then actually have to work the chair from a different direction. So that's kind of what I'm calling that trapping, like where the odor pools in an area that doesn't seem to be. Oh, and a good example is like an auditorium. When we put it in the center aisle, in the center chair, right when the dogs don't seem to, we've disrupted their pathway back directly to source. So that might be a good example of pooling and trapping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:So very interesting though the how okay. So the two things that we just talked about that seem to mimic or impersonate source would be one that higher quantification of collection, and we're calling it pooling and trapping, and the other piece is the inaccessible right.
Speaker 2:yeah, so inaccessibles are essentially pooling odor near source, yeah, but the dog cannot reach source by nature of the hide. And this is where I see some problems that maybe some teams, if they do a lot of inaccessible hides, the dog starts making or jumping to conclusions sometimes where if they don't get to source, then they have to make a decision away from source. And now are they going to jump to that conclusion quicker in pooling odor versus continuing that work to try and figure out okay, where is source? Do I understand where source is versus hey, this is a quantified amount of odor that should be enough. Is versus hey, this is a quantified amount of odor that should be enough. And there's an object that looks like it's good enough, like high value, high expectation, like a chair or maybe even a desk.
Speaker 2:We saw that in Bayfield recently where there was a desk in the far corner of the room. My dog falsed on it. My dog was not the only dog that falsed on it and I don't think it was the things in the room, because there was a lot of odor changes, there's a lot of behavior changes and Don't know, and then handlers are calling it. But I think that that's that same kind of picture where the path back to source is not there. It might be above the dog's head I don't know where the odor was going, but it was definitely not back directly to the source itself. And I think that that's a piece of that inaccessible problem when we start training them a lot, where the dog can't reach source Because it's pooling. It is pooling your source and I don't think that that's wrong. It's just how it is.
Speaker 1:Right, and it probably starts with when we do start, like I said, at level two, where we really are starting to introduce that concept of the inaccessible hide and starting to reward at less than source.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:So right away, it's an immediate quandary where, if you're listening to this conversation, I'd be even saying well, wonderful, you just identified the problem.
Speaker 2:What do I do about it?
Speaker 1:Right, and how do I build clarity for my dog? So one of the things that I really really like to do and it has, I can tell you, after training many dogs right, that it does seem to build clarity for the dog is to, like you were talking about, really build the dog's expectation based on that accessible, available odor source yeah, the odor learning that, so that becomes their default. That becomes their default expectation.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:So that when they get into these quantifications because they have olfactory pattern memory right, that will be a memory pattern that they have learned and it's in their, it's in their olfaction bank basically right yeah, that they've learned what that looks like when it is connected to source.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, so I'm doing a lot of the the barrier work, and if you don't know what I mean by that, guys, it's it's putting the hide in a cabinet, but when your dog alerts on the outside of the cabinet, you open the cabinet cabinet and you reward it at source, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So like an inaccessible is never truly inaccessible. In training, the dog starts expecting that they can still get rewarded on source, so they don't give up that work, even if they can tell you about it, but then know that there's still that extra layer that I can get through and I think that's a really helpful piece of it. And so, jill, you hit on like a piece of it, but then know that there's still that extra layer that I can get through and I think that's a really helpful piece of it. And so, jill, you hit on like a piece of it and it's like it's all about the balance, that expectation that they can get onto source. So it's almost like a teeter-totter and if we put too much weight into, okay, I want to build the skill of elevated heights, I want to build the skill of inaccessibles, and build the skill of inaccessibles, and then we're swinging that whole thing. So the expectation is they don't quite have to get to source. We have to put that teeter-totter back in balance of putting more value into I get to source, I get to source, I get to source. And I think that that can be something that we have to consider.
Speaker 2:What is my dog doing? And you have to see your dog. You have to recognize where's my dog's expectation. Are they expecting that they can get to source? Are they expecting that they can be rewarded away from source?
Speaker 1:Well, and I really have that handler observation piece is so important too, right? So? And it's not that you absolutely make up the dog's decision by your observation, it's just watching your videos and watching your dogs work those kinds of hides so that you can determine what is your dog's expectation when it comes to that final decision making. Are they making it a long way away from source or do they continue to have that press in? I want to get closer, and so that's where we get those wonderful brackets, right.
Speaker 1:So one of the hides that I did for the summit. I had a storage area underneath a stadium that had you know five or six I think I actually had six six of those massive tubs that you know on rollers and they were all pushed up against a wall. So I put it on the one that was deepest way down on the bottom right Crazy Yep. And you got this wonderful bracketing where the dogs tried to get into the front door. They tried to get in the side door. They go to the back of the wall and try to come in the back. Then they'd go around the side and try to duck under.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of the way that you want to build that, as opposed to setting it up so that the dog comes in and like, pokes her nose in once and then turns and says, oh, this is a hide I get rewarded for. You need to reward me. And some of that is really because of the handler's need for more communication. Right, yeah, but that whole. Now there's also a huge benefit of it in terms of the dog's clarity, because the dog's clarity of sources, I don't stop when it's just this pool that is happening away from source. I continue to push through my pathways to try to get to source, and I think that's one of the real key points of how to train with pulling and trapping.
Speaker 2:Totally so. I did an inaccessible. After our scent trials I did a seminar for a bunch of folks and they're all at the upper level summit and kind of almost there. And we did one with those cafeteria tables that fold up, yes, so that they are kind of on wheels and moved around. So we put one six tables deep, kind of in the middle of this whole stack in a corner and it was just observing, watching what your dog would do, building that expectation as a handler to know what your dog would do and it was cool to see some of the dogs.
Speaker 2:no question whatsoever, they just pushed in and they went through all the tables, figured out a way and got their nose on source. Other dogs are going. That's too much pressure, I can't do that. But they were still equally as clear. And it's just as a handler to recognize, okay, this bracketing, pushing the nose, bracketing, pushing the nose going away, verifying even with one little pass away that it isn't coming from further away the odor is from that pile of tables and then pushing in a little bit further and then the handler feel very confident in calling alert on that.
Speaker 1:And that's a really good point, because every dog is going to be different and we're going to have some dogs who, like you said, whether we call it object pressure, we call it object pressure. Maybe the tables look like there's something over my head. It just was too much to want to say, oh, I want to go in there and mess around right, because not every dog's going to want to do that, and some others just may be exceedingly solving it with an intellectual brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's hard for us to discern oh, is my dog just really smart? And by asking them to do all that pushing in because I need it.
Speaker 2:Is it depolarizing Exactly?
Speaker 1:Or it becomes a behavior.
Speaker 2:You've actually just trained a behavior as opposed to a response to odor yeah, right, interesting, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that could happen too, so.
Speaker 1:So, if we're going to go down a little list of, okay, how one, how do I train this, well, I guess, first off, it's not just how do I train it, because before I train it I have to create it. Yeah, that's a hard thing, and I've done that in class before where we said okay, we, we're going to every dog that comes into class right into this particular hide setting session. We're going to change the hide every time.
Speaker 2:Oh, so you have a pooling odor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were trying to make it more and more pooling. So we set a hide we thought would be pooling. We ran one dog and we went okay, it pooled here. Let's see if we can create even more right.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so then we would either add an object, add a fan.
Speaker 1:We kept doing something and it was really pretty challenging to figure out in our human brain what we thought was going to create pooling and trapping for the dog.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's break down what odor-wise creates pooling To me it's texture, meaning either objects- or surface like even micro-texture. So a smooth floor isn't going to create it, but it's going to move odor easily away from source. But it's going to collect where there's more carpet wood not polished wood but like old barn doors.
Speaker 1:Objects that interfere the pathway right. So it could even be a rock right and now it's going across. This is pretty standard, especially for your crack hides where it's going away on that concrete and then it hits a wall right, and so then you've got pooling on that wall, because it was the object that interfered with the flow of the odor.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I also have relative humidity, so if something has relatively more humidity than the surrounding environment, it's more likely to collect some odor molecules. So grass I was going to say so.
Speaker 1:give us some examples, yeah.
Speaker 2:So grass, or if you're in a bathroom, maybe the piping underneath a sink can have a little bit more.
Speaker 1:And by humidity at this point you mean not what the barometer's doing, you mean relative within the space just that it absorbs or holds more moisture yeah, or is creating moisture?
Speaker 2:okay, yes right like plant material would create moisture or puddles, puddles after rain. Right, yeah, for sure you'll see odor collecting even like big pools, like we have pools in some of our search areas. Out here you'll see that odor collecting on the top of the pool or a fountain, and then the dogs will sniff that and then work away to source. So that kind of relative humidity, right. Yeah, um, I also have gravity. Gravity is less influential with essential oils, but it's still a factor.
Speaker 1:You can definitely see that. Well, and this is where the atmospheric humidity right it came into play. I firmly believe in Minnesota, because the humid molecule was just so much more fat and happy.
Speaker 2:The water.
Speaker 1:yeah, was just so much more fat and happy, the water yeah, yet because it was so heavy and I am much more experienced at what I'm going to call dust in the wind, okay, so using our essential oils in an environment much like Colorado, it's very dry. I get one little breeze, one little push of air conditioning and it's moving and I've got a lighter dusting, if you will, on all those objects versus this stuff was sticky, it was like right, it was kind of like yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:You know it just moved away from source, hit even especially fabric, like a fabric chair stuck there. And then there was, like, like I say, it was so compelling because it was so much heavier right in its quantification there that there wasn't this wonderful little trail between it. So that was a very interesting observation, I thought.
Speaker 2:Something I've also seen like Minnesota I've judged there a few times as AKC as well is that the odor will hold at a level. So as long as there's no changes happening in the environment like brown barometric pressure, there we go um. But I've seen it like holding at the exact height that the hide was set.
Speaker 1:So if the hide is at three feet it gets very sticky to source. It gets very sticky to where that source is located.
Speaker 2:But even in the odor plane, like I don't see it dropping necessarily, sometimes it will just hold at three feet. So if that's what's happening sometimes, elevated hide there works really nicely because it's going to drop nice and consistently, but every once in a while it's just holding steady. And so then a little dog is at a disadvantage because it's not dropping for a long distance, and they have to really work intellectually on how to solve that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had one of those that I set in the summit where it was a sign hide and it was. It was on a wall and I put it in a piece a grout, a grout. You know where the grout was. It had a wonderful channel, wonderful channel to fill to run right down to the concrete right and then it could have cooled there, so it'd be really interesting to go back and set that exact same hide in maybe drier conditions, cooler air, right, those sorts of things, because then at least you're still dealing with the pretty much the same environment.
Speaker 1:If I go set that hide in Colorado. It's really hard for me to make that comparison because it's such a different environment, right? But nevertheless so. Those are some of the ways that you can create that pooling and trapping is, you know, to really work on setting the hide close to those things that are going to absorb the odor right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I've also seen the amount of airflow and I think this depends on how much humidity you have in the air. But I find that some of the worst pooling problems are with a lighter airflow than something very strong, and I think not everybody realizes that. Like, oh, this room is still, there's no air movement. Well, there's always going to be movement and I find that those sometimes are the worst pooling problems because there isn't like this nice gust of air, refreshing it, pulling odor away from source, creating that line. It's just it like settles and nothing is cleaning it up.
Speaker 2:So I find that can be.
Speaker 1:Here's an interesting observation. So I actually wrote down like okay, how do we train this? And one of my first and I'm always thinking progression right. I'm always because of the way that I have always taught whether it be a physical sport to human being, like skiing or nose work that I want to first begin with the easier problems and make them progressively more complex. Okay, that's basically what I mean by progression. So the first thing I wrote down was working with accessible hides and a lot of available odor, right, so that's taking that tin and maybe even using it at a higher level of concentration right, so I'm using it at a higher level of concentration.
Speaker 1:Right, so I'm using it at a stronger hide and I'm going to put it like on the face of a cabinet, not inside the cabinet.
Speaker 2:On the face of the chair. Yeah, so how much airflow is going past that physical hide in order to populate the space? Versus Right, and I call that open versus closed Right. So, how open is that hide to the environment versus how tight is it set Right?
Speaker 1:And if you and even at a really wonderful level to be able to do that is put it in an open box, put that hide in an open box, because what happens is all of that odor collects in that box, it becomes kind of your little close to source accumulation of odor, a pocket right. And then if you put that in any kind of air movement right now, that air movement takes all that accumulation all around it, takes it away and guess what? By diffusion and even evaporation or whatever else is going on in the environment, at that moment in time, those molecules repopulate. So now that box is becoming, you know, it moves away and then it fills it back up and it moves away and it fills it. There's a constant movement of that odor. So that can be a great way to create that pooling and trapping away from your hide, away from source.
Speaker 1:So this goes right into what I call downwind dog right. And this is what you were saying about going out into the stronger wind. Boy, can you learn a lot about how our dogs solve these problems by actually going outside, into an exterior and working in either a mild wind, a moderate and even into heavy, what we might, you know at least so that we can still do what we do stand up and things but and really watch how your dog solves that problem. So you might right, it's like you put it, even if you as weird as it says, but put it on some natural object and you're going to start upwind from it, meaning you don't feel odor or wind in your face when you start your dog.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Then you're going to do the clock right, go around the clock and start the dog at different right. Locations and if you're concerned about it being a prior found hide. Then put it on an object you can move.
Speaker 2:Yep, right. So something else to kind of consider, in that is for those who are trying to work pooling. I find that dogs cheat at this per se, meaning you're trying to set up, and you may have set up a pooling problem and it worked really well, but your dog knows the hides on the chair. So the dog doesn't work anything. The dog just runs the chair and goes oh, the hides on the chair, right you?
Speaker 1:can you reward and you go?
Speaker 2:oh, great so using less, um less high value for the dog on the hide placement. I call these invisible, so the hide is not obvious to the dog and the dog actually has to work the odor information. One example of this is like if you used one of those short X-Pens just two panels, and you put one of those metal tubes on it or a shrink tube works too and you just prop that up somewhere. The dog may even go over to the X-pen, but there's no collection of odor on the X-pen itself.
Speaker 2:So the dog doesn't go. Oh, the object is it. They have to work the odor picture and it can be really tricky for a lower level dog. But when you get to that mid-level like okay, I need to work some pooling problems I find it's kind of a good object to be able to use, because the dogs can try to jump to conclusions and it's not always going to work for them.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's a great middle piece of that progression, right? So we start out with these hides that are very accessible and a lot of motor availability. I've got collection at that level one and two. Now I'm going to move into the inaccessibles, and even before I start to place those inaccessibles using a screen, like Alex is suggesting, another one that works great is a chain link fence or any kind of fence that goes between things Right? But, the object is you want your dog to be able to get around it right, so they can experience have access?
Speaker 1:to both yeah, have access to both sides and experience what it's like from one side or the others. Yeah, so both of those can really work well. Yeah, so then also you can do the same thing with a fan and using a fan inside and even using a fan outside, so you can, or?
Speaker 2:on containers yeah fans on containers are excellent to create that pooling and you can leave that airflow. Or on containers yeah, fans on containers are excellent to create that pooling and you can leave the fan running which creates that odor picture back to source more easily. Yeah, or you can turn it off and now you can create pooling on containers without that line super clear back to source and the dogs have to work a graduated amount of odor as they move through the containers to source. I find that that can work too.
Speaker 1:And we think that what you'll find is that when the fan is on now granted, if it's on stronger than the odor is attaching to stuff that's going to present a different picture. But putting it on a setting you know, you're going to find that they're able to solve that source more readily when the fan, when the air is moving consistently, versus when you turn it. You move it, you get it to all go over and then you turn it off. And a really great way to do that as well is literally the open box with a fan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And how close is your fan too? Yeah, because the closer the fan is, the narrower that, like wind flow can be, because it starts spreading out as it goes away from the fan. So if your fan is 15 feet away from everything, you're moving more of the air around the container to create a different picture than if your fan was like two feet away from your container. So those create different pictures as well.
Speaker 1:And an easy way to add the I just call it the bucket right. Throw in the bucket so, or bowl or anything that is typically you right. We think of pooling and we think of a puddle. Well, a puddle is water accumulation in an indentation right.
Speaker 1:So you could set your hide and then just put, like a flower bowl, you know, a flower pot or some object like that in close proximity. The first time it might be a foot away, next time it's two feet away, three feet away, and watch the dog come in and we're thinking, oh well, of course the dog's going to investigate, that's another object in the odor path.
Speaker 1:But watch the the time frame within which the dog spends on that, right, yeah, versus, and if you're confused about, well, but the hides could be in a flower pot, then set one where it is, down in it and watch the difference. Yeah, right, because then the dog's attracted to but then we'll actually work it. And, right, do the whole bracketing piece and then put their nose down inside, because they do understand the difference between the pooling and trapping source, actually populating or originating molecules into the atmosphere, right, that, then they're able to work that quantification to then determine what source is. So it's that animataxis, or you know the concept of it, that's that field dog, right, that goes right to left, right to left, measuring all that quantification from the stream of odor that's coming at it from right, but it's in an environment. So is it an absolute triangle? Is it an absolute cone? No, but for us humans it's a little easier to understand how our dogs are doing it, what they're doing it, by using those terms.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah. So I have kind of a thought on this. Pooling odor itself in a trial often is a handler problem, not a dog problem, because I find that the reason why people get stuck in pooling other than like the dog hitting on a neighboring container because it was hot or just not understanding how to work pooling problems but in general, if the human is getting stuck in pooling it's because the human observes changes of behavior in the dog, the dog's working odor. The human isn't wanting to leave, the dog may even start to try and leave, but because the human doesn't want to come with them, the dog comes back and says, oh, maybe the human has a great idea. And then it becomes this cycle where both parties are trying to convince each other that there might be something available in there and somebody just has to say I'm pulling us out of the pool, like I'm the lifeguard today, because I do find that it is a human problem, sometimes more so than a dog problem.
Speaker 1:And I think that part of that human problem just going to interject this really quick and then let's get back to the lifeguard is because, again, you know, you go back to how we come up through the ranks, how we train this sport, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's that nine second hide.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's that right. It's the very available accessible hide. The dog goes in and just, it's so odor driven. The dog goes in there and nails the hide. We know it's source, we reward it.
Speaker 1:We do that for the whole time till we get through level one. Then we start to add maybe a little bit more complexity right when we've got these inaccessibles, but they're still pretty basic. The dog looks very confident, very sure of themselves. If we're training appropriately, with clarity for the dog and odor driven, and they understand what source is that, is the fuel behind our dog driven? It's not. I'm not just steering my dog behind and letting my dog decide where they want to go.
Speaker 1:Searching this is all about finding at this level still, yeah, yeah, I have really reinforced the find um to be very, quite speedily. Even when we're talking about the stealthy dog, the dog that you know, sometimes we overcast and think that fast just means the dog is moving fast. It's actually what's the time frame that it takes for the dog to solve from the release go find to.
Speaker 2:I have found it here it is.
Speaker 1:Here is my end of locate right. And that can be a very calm.
Speaker 1:I really hate to use the word slow, because they aren't slow, they're very methodical, it's the dog who, just like I'm, not going to expend any more energy than is absolutely necessary and I know where my treats coming from versus the dog that absolutely adores and loves the movement. They may be moving around because they love to expend that energy. So really it's just the dog's, I think, real like or passion for that energy, and which one the dog has. But it's so fascinating. I think that's one of the reasons why, not only because we might not understand what our dog is doing, right, right, but when we get into that trial phase training we may be able to be a lot more patient, right there's a problem Stand back further maybe, but we get into trial and we're automatically the jeopardy.
Speaker 1:clock is ticking and we know this event, because this is what this is. This is what trial is. Trial is a timed event for you to get the most number of hides you can get. Forget about competing with others. It's not whether or not you can do it the fastest, it's not whether or not you can get more hides than others, until we start to talk about competing with others. This is just you and your dog.
Speaker 1:It is a timed event for me to measure my skill set. Can I get in there? Can I get the number of hides that have been set? Accurately, call alert. Get the yeses within the timeframe for that search. Yep, exactly so we immediately know as human beings that right it's like you know, public school has taught me this I want to do it right.
Speaker 2:Plus, we've missed hides, right. I don't know of any team that hasn't missed hides at some point, and so every hide you've missed now kind of builds into this like, oh, but we missed this in the past, so I'm going to stay longer, and so then it builds into that expectation as well for the human.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think also, it's honoring your dog, right? So that's what's so fascinating about this sport, because we are so humbled every single second right. So it's like going oh my gosh, if my dog is on source, if he really is working source or she, I really don't want to just walk away. What are you saying, alex? I should turn my whole body and walk away and leave. What if this really is? Well, if it really is and we do that in practice and we do it in training my dog will return Right.
Speaker 2:So, okay, I think you brought up a perfect point In training. Are we doing what we need to be doing for us to learn and to build those right patterns that we need to be using in a trial? I find, for the majority of people in training, if you are doing them known, you are basically waiting for your dog to get to the right spot where you know the hides are, so that you have a chance to reward your dog. We stop watching, we just start waiting for our dogs to do the things we want them to be doing. And if you don't know where they are, I find, yeah, you might be a little bit more observant, but you're not picking up necessarily on some of the learning that you could be doing when you know where the height is.
Speaker 2:So then we have to get into this other mindset of going okay, everything my dog does has a reason, and so every training opportunity is an opportunity to say, okay, why did they change direction, why did they slow down?
Speaker 2:Why did they drop their head there? And then I call them post-it notes right now, because every time there's like some grand change of behavior, whatever it might be or subtle, I want to put a post-it note so I can go back and think about these things later. I've had some of my students. They videoed whatever. They're understanding that they know where the hides are, but as their dog does a big change of behavior, they raise their hand so that in the video when they're watching back they can recognize that they saw a change of behavior. And so then when you're watching it back then you go, okay, that's the behavior, but then there was two others before it I didn't see. And so then we can start being a little bit more critical about ourselves within our own little safe pocket of watching our own videos to ourselves and learning what do the changes of behavior actually look like when the dog is in pooling versus when they're at source?
Speaker 1:And trusting what they mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we really need to accept the science that says our dogs have a supercomputer called their olfaction system. Once we train and imprint an odor, all of those changes of behavior are no longer tricks, they're no longer right. It is a response, an auto response to odor. The change of direction, the drop of the head, all of that is actually the olfaction system, creating what the dog is doing in that search. If we have sufficient clarity for the dog and sufficient importance of odor right, you know both the recognition and the importance, so that we have odor drive. Because once you reach that quantification right, that quantum leap to the dog's sense of odor drive, and that this is the task, all of those things they're doing is in response to odor. And I think that that's part of what happens when we get into that and human beings, we always try to come up with ways to explain why I did what I did.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So the ways to explain why I just stood there and watched my dog was uh, well, um, uh, I was really supporting my dog because my dog was still working odor Right, and it's really more about is the dog still giving me the same response that they were giving me right now? Yeah, and and like so, and I have a dog that will spin right. Yeah, so he's in there and then he'll go around. And what am I doing?
Speaker 1:I'm may polling, like just letting him go around me again around, we're just spinning around me again and I'm not thinking, okay, why he's doing the same thing more than once. Yeah, exactly what's going on? Maybe I'm in the picture and I need to move. It's not that I'm selling my dog. There's a lot of see. We've done this thing with these words, right. It's not necessarily that I'm selling my dog. My dog is still trying to tell me what odor is doing. I have just lost the capacity to objectively and reasonably understand what my dog is doing in response to odor Totally.
Speaker 2:Yep. So another one, other than spinning, would be like eye contact. If your dog, like side eyes you, or takes a look at your foot direction or takes a look at what way you're facing or seeing. If you're looking at them, why is your dog looking at you? If your dog is working odor, probably they don't care about you.
Speaker 1:They really don't they care about you at the end.
Speaker 2:Yes, but if your dog is starting to take little eyes at you, it's taking cues from you your direction, where you're standing, if you're not moving right, and so those are starting to be cues from you your direction, where you're standing, if you're not moving right, and so those are starting to be cues for you to go. They don't have anything new. They're trying to grasp at straws here. What if I took a step back? What if I changed direction? What if I went with them when they went wide? Then what happens? But I don't think you have to initiate it necessarily before you see some of these things. Those are some of those behaviors that we're looking for.
Speaker 1:Yep, I like that. Yep, yeah, and it's just that same. So if a really good example is when you're reading a book and, granted, this is back when we used to like have books, we opened up your words right, yeah, told a story and you'd find yourself maybe, you know, kind of dozing off or whatever you were doing, so you would read the same paragraph more than once.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hoping that it would make more sense.
Speaker 1:Read the same sentence, hoping you'd understand it, or whatever it said right yeah, so that's the same kind of concept.
Speaker 2:Your dog is reading the same information over and over and not getting different direction we still don't know who done it. We have to get to the next paragraph exactly.
Speaker 1:So the concept then would be and granted, maybe you want to. This is a really good thing. Maybe you forgot what happened a few pages ago, so you want to flip back a couple pages. So that means maybe you want to revisit somewhere in the search area right To collect. Oh my gosh, I forgot who is that character?
Speaker 2:I don't even remember that character. Who's?
Speaker 1:got the. What is it the candlestick? I didn't think Mrs White had the candlestick. What Right. So, flip back a couple pages, Go find out who's got the candlestick right and then, all of a sudden, your dog knows the answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, or you're going to go forward, right Forward yeah, let's go somewhere new, let's right, so I like the concept of forward, because if you are thinking, okay, I'm just going to keep moving forward, I'm just going to keep moving forward, you should have enough time Now. Summit searches can be an exception because of the size, but typically you're going to have enough time then to revisit some of the issues that you left and they might resolve themselves because your dog has now solved some of the other problems. So, to me, forward not pushing, not leading, just like thinking okay, where do I want to go next? Thinking, because what happens is when you're where do I want to go next? Thinking Because what happens is when you're thinking where you want to go next, your body ends up supporting your dog's decisions to do it.
Speaker 1:So? But what about the comment that if I'm thinking it and my dog hasn't done it, aren't I making a suggestion to my dog to go where I think we should go versus where my dog? And why is that harmful? Is it beneficial?
Speaker 2:Well, who's more important, you or odor? To your dog, odor should be more important, so they should feel free to say no, your idea sucks. I would like to go this way, odor, and you should be giving up your thought and go. Oh yes, odor, right, that's a personal opinion, I guess, because I always like that, yeah, but I think we're back to that balance, that continuum, right?
Speaker 1:So if the dog is over here in oh Lord, I forgot all the characters. I don't right, I'm not getting enough information from this page of the book, right? I need to then maybe have someone help turn the page for me so I can get some new information and then the dog can always come back to where they kind of left off Whatever they need to, so really interesting experience with running dog in white for my summit trial, as the dog was running and the handler was absolutely amazing, penny's amazing with her dog, porter.
Speaker 1:I would say things like so I'd like to have Porter work this over here. And Penny didn't make a single change in anything she was doing. Porter would respond. I can't believe for a second that he was taking verbal direction from me. I think we were both in sync. We were in sync with where he was going to go next, right With regard to where that hide was located and where I was watching his responses. To odor, so that can happen simultaneously. And if in training odor, so that can happen simultaneously.
Speaker 1:And if in training, you're never taking that step to become in sync with your dog and you're constantly asking your dog to make all the decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or you take any decision away from them. That means no odor. Because I find that happens in training too, where you go don't sniff, that don't sniff that because you know the answer. But that might've been critical information that can help them learn how to do this faster. And now in a trial, you're letting them do it and they're getting distracted while they're also gathering information because they've never done it before. So there's that piece too.
Speaker 1:Yes. So that whole answer may feel very muddy, but think of it in terms of a continuum Right, and we're constantly moving along this continuum and in sync is in the middle Right. It's not any different, I don't think, than when you're doing agility or you're doing any other act, even walking on a leash, for heaven's sakes, with your dog. There's times when you are in sync and the dog is moving at this pace and you're right behind them and you can anticipate when they're going to turn, when they're going to drop their head, all those things. And then there's times when you take a step and they slow down abruptly and you don't quite catch it. So it's that constant movement that makes the overall odor dance and I think. Think that to like, and we fall into habits, because I was just watching one of my videos from Pueblo where I'm falling into the habit of great resistance on my leash.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, we create habits, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what? What I see it doing is really impeding my dog's ability to move more freely, because he is a sweeper right that characters.
Speaker 1:Now, granted, if I didn't, if I felt that wasn't effective and efficient and blah, blah, blah, I could do all kinds of training things to run him on shorter leashes, um, you know. So I'm not saying that it's a long leash is the best or short leash. I'm saying for this dog what I'm noticing at his learning right now, because we went through a phase where off leash I felt was too much intramural, right, we used to have intramural sports where you just got to go play.
Speaker 2:It was just really fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we always called it in when we were ski instructors free skiing. What that meant is I don't have to go teach anybody, yes, I'm going, and I don't have to be in a clinic. I'm not taking anyone with me to tell me how to do my turns, I'm just going to go enjoy skiing. It's called free skiing, that's what we used to call it Right? So that's the same thing. I would apply that. You know, at that point in time he felt like he was doing freestyle nose work, just kind of off doing his own thing, right, yep, yep, and I'm going wait. This is a trial sport that I am going to participate in. It's a team event. It's a team event and I a team event, and I have a clock and I have a certain number of hides we need to capture within that time frame right.
Speaker 1:So I need to think about efficiency. So his method at that point in time of freestyle nose work may be very effective, as long as I've got enough time.
Speaker 2:It's not very efficient.
Speaker 1:It's not very efficient. So I kind of moved back over into efficiency zone and did some leash limitation. And then what I was watching, and then I was thinking okay, maybe if I can get him to do leash limitation he will solve the hides as he comes across them in a search. It's not my dog, no matter how much I want to have that dog it's not my dog right.
Speaker 1:So that's your point about moving forward, moving forward, moving forward. And then the, what we are training in our dogs is the understanding of, because it is a fixed search area. It's not like we're asking them to go search the world and, oh my God, if I, you know, go past the state of of, you know, colorado, I'm going to be 600 miles West before, right, no, right, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you'll get back to the start.
Speaker 1:Yeah so. So that's become kind of eyeopening.
Speaker 2:So I'm hoping this next elite. With him I can be more free with the leash, but I do have a feeling my search areas are going to be considerably smaller.
Speaker 1:So that's going to kind of's just the environment, right.
Speaker 2:For him an advantage, because he didn't have time to go running around, he would just run into a hide. Run into a hide. Run into a hide. He was great, it was very much in his favor. Does not fix our problem of large search areas. Yes, exactly, Exactly. Don't have to work on it.
Speaker 1:Right, yep, exactly so, because the video I was watching was at Pueblo, where it's the state fairgrounds, and those search areas were huge right. And then even for the summit that I just set those search areas. A lot of them were very large, right, so it would be the same kind of concept there, right?
Speaker 2:So let's bring it back to pooling and these really large search areas, because I think that that's potentially somewhere we have some of the biggest problems and I think this is detective as well in AKC detective because those search areas can be pretty large 5,000 square feet.
Speaker 2:It's not necessarily as large as some of the biggest summit searches, but it definitely is along the same lines as some of the large ones or medium. But you can have, in detective, a whole exterior space with no hides and that means all your odor in the space is actually bleeding out from your interior space and that can create some pooling and pooling, collecting in areas that you may not or you may have a high expectation to hide should be, so that can become a problem. So then, recognizing, how do I get out of here? Is it worth staying? Because, like detective, you have to find them all. So that changes that mindset a little bit.
Speaker 2:Typically there's a lot more time, but not necessarily for every team. Some dogs are not moving that quickly and when you're covering a large expanse of space you may not have enough time. So then you have to make that decision. Is the intensity increasing Like? Are the brackets getting smaller? Is there becoming more clarity, or is this just a repetition of odor that's fluffy and having no answer Right? And so in these larger spaces that might be a big problem, especially for fast moving dogs that are clearing and giving you edges of all these odor information, but you're never getting anywhere and it's hard to tell. Is it they're moving too fast, or is there nothing here to find?
Speaker 1:Well, and that's the beauty too of having multiple searches for a trial day, right, so that with a good mindset of going, okay, I'm going to think about what I just observed, right, and try to take it into the next search if it pertains right. So, say, one search, because, especially like a good example might be Elite, where we'll have some very large, well, level three too, but definitely some but we have some search areas that are quite large. We're going to have a six or six minute search or whatever, right. And then you go to the three minute search that's considerably smaller or less populated with stuff, right, yeah, right, so kind of trying to figure those out. But I think that part of it is one in training, really working on exposing your dog to the pooling and trapping. So to do that, if I'm in in often in training, without relying on someone else that's got great knowledge or experience to set that pooling and trapping for me, how can I do that? My suggestion would be you're probably doing it more often than you think.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know, and then you just have to be so much more forgiving for the dog taking time to work a puzzle out as opposed to right. You set it and you go. Oh, it was too hard for my dog. Was it really too hard, or was it that your dog had not yet experienced that minutia of that hide on that day, on that object.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or potentially, you're setting nice pooling but your handling is supporting your dog to leave that pooling so efficiently that they never actually get stuck, quote unquote. And so then you don't think that there's pooling, you don't think that there's a problem, but realistically you just handled them out of it without knowing it and that's as simple as you turned and faced towards the hide when they were starting to work that way In a trial maybe you didn't In a trial you stayed facing your dog or stayed facing a corner or more productive area.
Speaker 1:You thought what are some of the things we can do to avoid that we I? I would think that one of the things we could do um one if you can find ways to do more searches off leash, even if your dog, like mine, and I'm going cringing, going, oh, I don't want to let him off. He becomes too aroused, he does too much running. However, if I can find, even like, say, I find tennis courts or something that has a fence so that I'm not going to get the long range run out, right, yeah, yeah, and try to use off leash, but with a confined area, that can help but set your hide, so that you are actually, once you say your dog working it and you know they're working odor away from source, that you actually start to pay more attention to that pooling area.
Speaker 1:And then you do yeah right, then you do source and work on the dog breaking through that to get away from you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then we kind of get into a proofing. So are we teaching ourselves to get out of pooling, right, like, who's the lifeguard? You, because then we have to be better at observing when odor information is not productive and it's just repetitive. Right, we kind of talked about that already.
Speaker 1:That's huge Odor. Information is not productive.
Speaker 2:It is repetitive there we go reading the same sentence.
Speaker 2:It's going again over and over yep, or the song is stuck in your head okay, um, or do we want to teach the dog to be the lifeguard to get out of the pooling odor information and it's all on the dog, or do we do both? And to me I think it's a full team effort, but I'm not going to be the only person or only part of the team that knows how to do this. I want my dog to know if odor information is driving them out of the space, that they have the permission to go against my handling cues to start following that line and get working to it. So I've set something up like this. I like it on a driveway super easy.
Speaker 2:If you're standing on a driveway, you put the hide as a crack hide behind you.
Speaker 2:Maybe you're standing to the side slightly and you have a whole bunch of stuff in front of you boxes and chairs and things that your dog likes to search. You come into the middle. Airflow should be coming from your back, where the hide is, to the stuff. You come into the middle, you ask your dog to work the stuff and now it depends on the level of the dog. But the dog works the pooling information that was in all the stuff and it's up to them to follow that line of odor information to the crack hide behind you. Crack hide because it's invisible. It's less available for the dog to just run to and if you have a lower level dog, as they get beside you turn and face them and that's almost reinforcing for them to push into your pressure and they're going to do it more likely For a higher level dog. I might stand right in front of the stuff and even call my dog back to check a box again. My dog should ignore me completely and go to the hide in the crack and reward them for it.
Speaker 1:And when we say should, what? If they don't, then what do I do? How do I right? Then we lower our criteria. Okay, talk about how to do that.
Speaker 2:So it's on our dog to make the choice to go as our handling. And some dogs are going to do it way more naturally without any conflict. Some dogs are going to have conflict, so you might see sniffing on the ground as they start coming into you. You go oh, this is really hard for them. So then you just release that pressure by turning to the same direction their nose is facing. Let them push that shoulder around so that you're now starting to face the same direction. And it's amazing for those dogs, they go oh, thank you. And then they run to the hide. Or you can even do this with a box behind you for a very lower level dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you can start it with primary yeah, yeah, start it with a toy in that box or whatever. It is Right. And you can't, even even if you're already on odor. There's nothing wrong If your dog is a play dog with practicing some of these concepts with their favorite toy, irrespective of nose work and outside of nose work, yep, yep, because then they really get the comfort zone of right of yeah, come into my pressure yeah, yeah, and and then you don't feel so um burdened, yeah, being the perfect handler, right yeah like, hey, we're just playing, and if we mess it up and you don't get the toy?
Speaker 1:that's cool, we're still going to play with the toy. One of the other things I was going to mention is when you said that about the crack hide. Well, if I don't really have anywhere to put a crack hide, I can use all sorts of things. I could use grass, I could use dirt, I could use a wall, I could use gravel Any of those pieces, right?
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:So even on your deck, you could do it in a parking lot.
Speaker 2:A parking lot with the parking curbs is a great way to do it right, so for sure, the key is that the airflow is blowing towards them so that they are in odor and they can find that line back to source and that kind of game and playing versions of those games right, where the dog learns to push against you and then you release, so the dog learns that they are in control of you.
Speaker 1:So how do I do that?
Speaker 2:if I have the hide at my back or slightly beside you, behind you, okay, and I'm releasing my dog forward of me yeah into the objects, yeah, but I want them to have odor in their face so that's where the dogs have enough value to check the objects in front of you.
Speaker 1:Some dogs are going to be like turn around right away, okay okay, cool, and what you could do probably is even release closer to the objects, then back it up so you're releasing further away, further away, further away, right? And then again, you could do the clock thing, you could. Or we're just going to move around the clock and get different order pictures right, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what can we do, though, when I think that some of it really comes down to also what you hit on before, which is handler recognition yeah, the odor recognition of that problem, and I think that sometimes what happens is the trial clock ticks right and we're just not either conscious of it of that time, or we're not. We don't feel confident moving away and getting other information.
Speaker 2:I think it's also we feel like we've missed a hide in the past and we're hopeful that this new odor information could lead to something that I've missed in the past. Or my dog's bad at corners and so then, oh, they're showing information near the corner. So I'm going to keep pushing because they're bad at it. So I'm trying to overhandle for something. I have a bias that my dog can't do, and to me, what I've normally found is when handlers I like setting a search where the handlers don't know where the things are, and then I take note, where does the handler overhandle, where does the handler keep the dog? And pulling information, information, because it's typically a hide.
Speaker 2:They don't have confidence in knowing how to read, or they don't have confidence that the dog knows how to do. Then you set it and so, yeah, you can't do that necessarily by yourself, but I have done that where I'm trying to be very much in the moment and I'm watching my dog work and I go well, what if a hide would be in the corner there? What if there was an elevated hide over here? And then I can start going okay, I don't know what that would look like in comparison to what I'm seeing right now. So you finish your search, put your dog up, set that hide, train your brain, let your dog run it to show you what the difference was, the pooling information, and, as they're working it, label it like verbalize okay, that's what's different.
Speaker 1:Okay now, this is different now and it can help you see those different changes I think that's huge because really, when you and often when you call a false right, so whether it's improving and trapping, or you are working in an accessible but you're too far away, yeah, for whatever the call is right, right, so it's. If I really did have a hide on that chair, wouldn't my dog be so much more definitive about just driving into that chair, working it and giving me the information we need for?
Speaker 1:me to successfully call the alert right. So I think of those a lot when I walk away and I go. Oh my God, if the hide had been on there, it would have been a nine second. Oh, my God, it would have been just bam right, bam, bam, bam right Versus that working, working. I'm reading. I'm still looking for the name of that character in this damn book. Where did it go, right? So it's looking for the character in the book that's missing. Yeah, exactly, Well, that's a really great topic the book that's missing.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so well, that's a really great topic. I think that's really good. Yeah, so I'm going to carry it to my Leadville trial with my dog. We'll see how it goes. Yeah, so, but I do want to make a big shout out and a big congratulations to Alex. She now is an official.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Thank you Official.
Speaker 1:CO with NECSW? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Super excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, folks, if you're out there, hire her. Oh thanks, hire her for NW123. Because then she gets to move up and then there you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, it's going to be fun at 123. I'm very excited.
Speaker 1:So why do you find it so exciting?
Speaker 2:I really enjoy setting fun days for people and I really enjoy watching the teams figure them out and have success. I don't know, it's a thrill for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree, and it's the whole community piece too.
Speaker 2:There's so many amazing people, so now I get to travel a little bit more and visit even more people.
Speaker 1:Good job, so. So okay, guys, we're going to wrap this up. Thanks so much for listening to our pooling and trapping and talking about source imposters. So that might lend some ease to your training and, if not, feel free to get in touch with either one of us. We might have some ideas. But you can always follow along our quest, I guess, at trials, yeah, and, and believe it, we don't, um, have perfect perfection. We haven't figured it all out with our dogs, because it's on that day at that trial with this dog. So, exactly, have fun and keep trialing, thank you.
