Scent Detection Myths Debunked- PART TWO

What if everything you thought you knew about reading your dog in scent work needed a second look? This eye-opening myth-busting episode challenges common misconceptions that might be holding back your detection team.

We start by tackling the belief that a trained final response means you can ignore your dog's more subtle communications. The truth? Those changes of behavior as your dog works through the odor puzzle are just as crucial as their final alert. We discuss why depending solely on that end behavior can cause you to miss inaccessible hides or struggle when your dog can't perform their typical alert.

Perhaps most fascinating is our exploration of the "my dog lies" misconception. Dogs don't have the capacity to intentionally deceive us about odor. What appears as deception is actually a training gap or communication breakdown that we can solve by better understanding our canine partners.

Whether you're looking to strengthen your handling skills or simply want to understand your dog's odor detection process more deeply, this episode offers practical wisdom for handlers at all levels. 

Chapters

• 0:16 Recap and Handler Myths Introduction
• 0:51 Trained Final Response Misconceptions
• 12:45 The "Show Me" Command Myth
• 19:01 Myths About Handler Movement
• 24:44 Mixing Dog Sports Debate
• 29:15 "My Dog Lies" Misconception
• 33:20 Warm-Up Boxes and Pre-Search Routines
• 38:38 Male vs Female Dogs in Scent Work
• 41:18 FEO: More Than Just a Bailout
• 47:42 Off-Leash Container and Vehicle Searches
• 51:40 Debunking the "Worthless Handler" Myth

Transcript

Jill Kovacevich: 0:16

Hey everybody, welcome back. We're going to jump right back into our podcast topic. We divided this up into two segments. Actually, actually, in the first segment, we talked about myth busters for subjects that revolved around our dog and subjects that revolved around the environment, and now we're going to jump right into handler. So we wanted to bring this to you in two segments because the first one got rather long. So, alex, jump right in. What are some of our myths with regard to handlers?

Aleks Woodroffe: 0:49

All right. So we've got a bunch here. So the first one is trained final response means you do not have to read your dog's changes of behavior, and I'm personally I have a trained final responses on my dogs. They're not super long but they are final responses. But guess what? It should be a confirmation of what you've been observing in your dog instead of the only answer.

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:18

And I do find that if the handler starts really relying on that final trained response and or even just a alert behavior that is consistent at a hide, at least in training, that if you're relying on that you're going to be missing heights, you're going to not call the inaccessible, you're going to struggle to call a hide that has dog slobber on it because your dog didn't wag their tail, or that has dog slobber on it because your dog didn't wag their tail or look at you in the same way that they normally do. So I do think that it's important to be looking at all of the other changes of behavior that are happening, because that's really why we're doing the sport. Isn't that the fun part? I don't know. Personally, I like the changes of behavior. I love watching my dog work things and then, as they're working, I get to start figuring out what they're working.

Jill Kovacevich: 2:03

Okay, so let's look at that. So when you said train, final response tell me kind of. Is that more specific than? Oh, my dog? Like back in the day, right when we very first started with an ACSW, we were asked to define how our dog communicated to us, the handler, that they had located source, right. So I actually wrote my dog stops at source, sticks to source and then looks at me right. So that was my sequence of behaviors that I relied on as a communication of end of locate.

Aleks Woodroffe: 2:44

Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 2:44

Is that any different than a trained final response.

Aleks Woodroffe: 2:47

In my opinion. Yes, so my understanding the words right, it's a lingo Trained final response or final trained response. I've seen that as well. That refers to a behavior that has been created by the handler, possibly the dog, but typically it's the handler that is asking and shaping a behavior on source. That should be cued by source in order to do it and it should be consistent. It should be something that can be performed at all hides and it is typically something that is then released from. So the dog holds the position, holds the sit-stare. So the dog holds the position, holds the sit-stare. Normally it's a stare, a freeze, a sit, a down, and it will hold that until released.

Aleks Woodroffe: 3:31

So train final responses it depends on how much training is done for it, but typically it's going to be proofed against handler. It's going to be proofed against the environment to an extent movement distractions, and it does have some hangups and I find a lot of people who use them and have trained them in their dog. They're kind of fun to train. You do have to realize that that behavior should be independent of you, and I don't think it always is, and that's sometimes why people struggle with trained final responses, and that's where the changes of behavior are so important because you should be able to call a hide on the changes of behavior not necessarily just on the behavior that your dog has done at source after they have found the hide and made a decision to tell you about it.

Jill Kovacevich: 4:16

So when you're talking about the changes of behavior, those are all the pieces that come before the dog gets to source, right?

Aleks Woodroffe: 4:24

It can be 20 feet, 50 feet away.

Jill Kovacevich: 4:27

Yeah, all that communication that happens when the dog comes in the first direction, the dog takes right. As soon as they come across the start line, they get to a certain direction and then maybe they shift and move in a different direction. Maybe the head goes up, maybe the head turns right, maybe the nose goes down. Investigating up would be another one right. So all of those pieces Now, are we really really good at reading all those pieces, let's say, in their own moment?

Jill Kovacevich: 4:58

maybe not, maybe it does need to all be connected right For us to understand. So then, if we're going to the, what about the myth that says the dogs that have a trained final response are much more reliable on source?

Aleks Woodroffe: 5:13

Yeah, yeah. But then you get conflict if the dog is not super clear on where that final trained response should be, or trained TFR. So if the dog is doing an elevated hide and they have always put their nose on source as part of their TFR, well what happens when they can't put their nose on source? Now we have a dog who has conflict. We have a dog that might displace by sniffing on the ground and it looks like crittering. Maybe they dismiss the hide because they just say I can't alert on it, I'm going to move away. So you end up with problems like that or inaccessible hides. They're pushing, pushing, pushing and the handler expects the dog to give them. Even a strong look back on an inaccessible hide might not happen if the dog needs to get their nose on source before the look back happens. So there's little hangups like that. That can definitely happen.

Aleks Woodroffe: 6:00

Or something weird Like the ground is rocky and the dog has a sit and the dog's like I can't sit on that, I'm not sitting on that cold, rocky ground, and so then they don't sit and so then the handler doesn't call it. And I watched a team once do this. It was a larger dog and the dog was tired at the end of the long day and it had a sit alert and it couldn't sit. I was like that's a long way down for my knees, I'm not going down there. And it tried to alert. It was really quite clear. Changes behavior were really nice, strong, but because it didn't sit, the handler didn't read it and now we've lost a hide for not really a great reason because we really want that behavior.

Jill Kovacevich: 6:37

So I once, Jens Frank, actually said at one point in time if you want your dog to have a very reliable train, final response do not use it in training.

Aleks Woodroffe: 6:50

Oh, interesting yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 6:53

Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 6:53

I have to say that's probably how I do a lot of mine. So every once in a while, I think it's it's.

Jill Kovacevich: 6:59

Then the other piece is don't all of our dogs have a train? Final response Isn't that what end of locate is Is some behavior that occurs at the end of search.

Aleks Woodroffe: 7:10

So I once saw Julie Simons put it as a reinforced final response. I kind of love that term for the behaviors that we are not like like saying, hey, you need to sit in order to do this. Some dogs will offer it, and then you just kind of reinforce it and you're good to go, but you're not necessarily proofing it in the same way as to me. Anyway, a trained final response is requiring some a little bit of duration also to go with it, versus it's reinforced final response. I love that term because then it kind of explains how most alert behaviors are. They're highly reinforced, they're pretty consistent.

Jill Kovacevich: 7:47

And is reinforced in our reinforcement system the same as reward.

Aleks Woodroffe: 7:54

Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think so. I think we can reinforce it by facing them right. It doesn't even have to be the cookie, but yeah, we reinforce things a lot.

Jill Kovacevich: 8:04

Right, it doesn't even have to be the cookie, but yeah, we reinforce things a lot, so and I think ultimately you can decide where you want to be on that entire continuum of I like a train final response, I don't like a train final response, but ultimately I think what Alex and I are alluding to is the train final response is a behavior. Alluding to is the trained final response is a behavior. All of the behaviors the dog does as soon as they cross or are released into a search are important to our odor observation and our dog's communication of where they are in the odor puzzle and the communication of source at end of locate.

Aleks Woodroffe: 8:42

So it's all like you need to learn it all.

Jill Kovacevich: 8:45

Right as opposed to, and I think that that's the message right that you're trying to say, which is totally don't come in as a deer in the headlights and go oh. I've got a trained final response.

Aleks Woodroffe: 8:53

I really don't care what my dog's doing.

Jill Kovacevich: 8:55

I'm just going to sit here and wait for my dog to sit and I'll call it Right, yep, yep.

Aleks Woodroffe: 9:01

So, and I think the also kind of along the same lines is the behavior at the end. So, changes of behavior, cobs, whatever we're calling them. Those are occurring in response to the odor information. They are instinctual in some way. Very much so, yes, just what the dog is doing in order to detect it. The behavior that happens after they have found the source is much more operant. It's the dog making a decision to do a conscious behavior in order to earn their cookie, right, right. So then we start slipping into. It's a very different kind of behavior, and I think that's why humans recognize it, because it is something that is a decision. It's the thing that the dog does.

Jill Kovacevich: 9:44

Yes, exactly yeah, because we have programmed the supercomputer to recognize and this is science, this is what all of that you know. Cognitive science has established that you basically have programmed the olfactory system to respond to odor and that hunt, all of those behaviors of turning right, turning left, head go up, head go down body left, body right, even casting up right, all that investigative behavior has become instinctive, it has become intuitive. It's not? Oh, I think I will turn my head this way because it earns me a cookie. There's a difference, right?

Jill Kovacevich: 10:25

Yes, exactly so when your dog's in the search and the bot and this is kind of one of my kind of pet peeves is that we talk about what's your dog's change of behavior and I think, as human beings, what that, the connotation of that and the context that we have of that is more from maybe learning and training, obedience or the same right. Yeah, that, because it's such an exact moment in time as the dog crossed that quantification of odor at that exact place, right, that caused them to turn their head this way or up or down, and we discard that, we kind of go oh, I don't really know what you're doing, so I'm not going to acknowledge it as being a change of behavior, and we're looking for these more, larger changes of body yeah.

Aleks Woodroffe: 11:30

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 11:31

Right, so? Or even when they talk about okay, what does your dog's tail do during the search or at source, well, the more important thing isn't what your dog's tail does, it's what does your dog's nose do, if you can move?

Aleks Woodroffe: 11:45

your observation to the front of the dog, yes, but you should be able to see changes behavior on the back end too, and I find some people are so fixated on the nose that if the nose goes under a chair they're stuck. So now you're stuck looking underneath, when you could look at the back end and it will give you a lot of information as well.

Jill Kovacevich: 12:03

I've called many hides on just seeing my dog's back feet underneath something Right and on the flip side, you could call fail to call alert because your dog's tail isn't twitching. And I've got a couple of friends who right Tail isn't twitching, despite the fact that the dog made this full body turn into source right, because you're waiting exactly.

Aleks Woodroffe: 12:25

Tail twitch.

Jill Kovacevich: 12:26

So it can. Yeah, helicopter tail, so it can happen to it right it can happen totally to on both ends the best of us, right?

Aleks Woodroffe: 12:33

yeah, yeah, take it all. Yeah, it's all important, yeah, all right. Cool, I think we've got that one. Um, the second one and this is this is like one of those pet peeve ones Okay, show me. Saying the words show me. The myth is that it will verify the location for you. So you just tell your dog show me. And they're going to get to source Versus. And here's the trainer in me does saying the word show me, cue the dog to do a behavior based on your own cues or based on what they've learned that word means.

Jill Kovacevich: 13:09

And that's basically saying the same thing and it's not necessarily. If you don't use the word, show me you still might be repeating whatever your search cue is right, but I think that's at least better.

Aleks Woodroffe: 13:23

half the time I see the dogs and they're like oh, I found the hide, but I'm not going to tell you until you say the word show me. Okay, now I can do the behavior Right. Like there's like that kind of a chain behavior chain happening, or the dog finds it very clearly. The handler sees the behavior, squares up to the hide, puts a little pressure into it and says the word show me. So then the dog goes and performs the behavior better.

Jill Kovacevich: 13:54

Or the? Are you sure it's there? Can you show it to me? Where is it? What?

Aleks Woodroffe: 13:55

have you found?

Jill Kovacevich: 13:56

You know, go into this whole.

Aleks Woodroffe: 13:56

Now you got nerves yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 13:59

I really talk about it a lot as what the cues come out of our mouth is typically a lot, as what the cues come out of our mouth is typically more related to what we need as feedback than it is that the dog really needs to be asked that question at that point in time, right?

Jill Kovacevich: 14:14

So I like to do it rather than in a command statement show me or find it, keep working, you're doing a great job. That really helps me as a handler. Feedback, yeah, yeah, it helps me as a handler. Get into we're working, the dog's working. Right, we're both working. I'm recognizing my dog's working and I'm going to give my dog that positive spin on that word. I read somebody said always ask your dog a question, because to ask a question inflects our voice into a positive realm. My curiosity there is. But what is that going to do to me, right, yeah?

Aleks Woodroffe: 14:58

And I also. It doesn't always answer because the dog's like I'm not sure either.

Jill Kovacevich: 15:02

To me that's not helpful. Right my voice can go up. Yeah, my voice can go up, but I'm not asking the right question. The question would be are we still working? So, oh, we're working, right. And if your dog's fully distracted where you are going, okay, we need to get to work. Then you should have that cue that says, okay, leave that distractor alone, right? But I and.

Jill Kovacevich: 15:26

I have seen, remember you know, sometimes you'll see people say leave that or drop it, and we kind of you might cringe and go. You should never have a command in a search, Right? If the dog's going for it, and yet it may work, for that I think it depends on the dog's response, right? So if you have a very sensitive dog like my dog might very well, especially if I use the word ouch, holy buckets. It would shut him down, he would just go oh my God, what did I do? Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 15:56

Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 15:56

So I have to be very cognizant of my dog and what works for my dog and our communication. Right but still be open to other observations. If somebody else is observing hey, you're just repeating, you're becoming Charlie Brown's teacher. The whack, whack whack, whack, whack, and the dog isn't responding at all right. And you're not helping yourself with any self-talk right, yeah.

Aleks Woodroffe: 16:19

So another example kind of on the same line is and I saw a young male dog doing it this past weekend and my George was the same way when it's he was learning and I'm seeing it a little bit in other places is he got to a hide that wasn't in his library per se, so the hide placement is new to him. He's never really seen it before. He's not confident about what that would look like because he's so literal and so he would source it and then leave it Like I don't know, I can't do this. And I learned in those moments of going it's okay, buddy, you got it, you're awesome. And he turns right around, arrives right into that hide and alerts really nice and clearly. So it's creating that confidence when the dog's showing the unconfidence. So in that kind of situation if I said show me, maybe half the time he would, but he would start doubting the situation versus I just tell him he's awesome, good boy, you got this Good boy and it's enough, he can solve the problem.

Aleks Woodroffe: 17:19

And I gave the same advice to somebody this past weekend with her young male because he did the same thing. Like you could see him, he was novice, he came in kind of sort of found the hide got a little weird. It was a new placement for him and she said at that time like okay, you got this, you're okay. And he came in, drove right into the hide, found it really quickly. So I'm like what you just did, there is a great option. See how it works for the rest of the day. Just keep keep that in mind.

Aleks Woodroffe: 17:44

If he's sourcing, you're great at observing, trust that and tell him he's awesome. You don't have to say more than that. And she said my interior searches went amazing, it was perfect. And so once the dog starts building that confidence, you don't have to say it anymore. I don't say anything to George anymore, but I started learning at that last trial. He does it on the edge of odor and he just doesn't have the confidence to drive back in and trust himself that he was correct. And I've started just saying, in those moments when he hits that edge maybe on a corner or just edge of plume, and he starts sort of turning and he might see me, I'm like trust yourself, you're awesome, good job. And he drives right by me to go change direction and get back into those heights.

Aleks Woodroffe: 18:23

And so it's starting to work for him there.

Jill Kovacevich: 18:24

So it's just training, well, and I do think that some of it, though, is also the human self-talk.

Aleks Woodroffe: 18:32

Yeah, it is.

Jill Kovacevich: 18:33

So, whatever you know, if we're using words that basically have the connotation of you're not doing the job I need you to do To me, that's what show me is. That's what repeat of find it is Using whatever your search word is, that's more than that becomes that nag Do it now. Do it now. Do it now.

Aleks Woodroffe: 18:54

Exactly Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 18:55

That can be impinging on your confidence and the dog's going to read that immediately.

Aleks Woodroffe: 19:00

Right, yeah, exactly.

Jill Kovacevich: 19:02

Versus wow, you're doing a great job, Just keep working it, buddy, you got this Right. Versus wow, you're doing a great job, just keep working it, buddy, you got this right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 19:08

Yep, yep Cool, I love it. All right, all right. Next one here is a myth and it's kind of got three parts. First version is never stop moving your feet. The next one is don't stand still or don't square up Right. So these are all telling the handler to not do something because it's caused false alerts.

Jill Kovacevich: 19:32

So I really think that some of this and this is kind of how I explain it to students sometimes is from in-person coaching and what we are doing, because the handler has not yet learned to make their response to the dog's response to odor. So our coaching ends up being move in, move out, stand still. It's in response to the dog's response to odor that we're observing that the handler has no idea how to interpret that as yet. Right Agreed, yep. And that's where it becomes this well, you told me to move in, you told me to step out, you told me that right.

Jill Kovacevich: 20:11

And that's as students. That's like the last thing we could, because it worked right. So that's the other problem is that the coach or whoever told us to do that right, the last thing they told us before the dog gets the hide is what we think, don't move Work, yeah, or back up.

Aleks Woodroffe: 20:32

Take a step back, yeah, because you're too close.

Jill Kovacevich: 20:34

Exactly so, and I really think that the whole concept of where our handler body is has to be in response to the dog's response to odor Period Yep response to the dog's response to odor period. It's not just in response to the dog's shoulders, or in response to the dog on a certain length of leash or without a leash, or it really is. You know learning very, very well, and it's hard.

Aleks Woodroffe: 21:01

You're oh, you're going to be a student of this for the rest of the millennium, hopefully, so the other part of it and it's, I think, why we struggle with it is in training, when you know where the hides are. I do 80 to 90 percent of all my training with knowing where my hides are, but I try really hard to respond to my dog because when you know where the hide is it's very easy to handle the hide, Meaning you are facing the hide or squaring up to the hide or hesitating to leave because your dog was at the hide. Be honest to your dog's changes of behavior. If it wasn't happening for them at that time, then it's not happening. Or you make a conscious decision of saying I want to work this hide and he might need a little bit more support by me standing and not moving with my dog to stay here to help them work it out. And that's a decision to do specific handling to skill build right. It's not necessarily true to just handling.

Jill Kovacevich: 21:57

Well, and I think a lot of ways that you can, even if you know, cause that's such sounds so voluminous in terms of, oh my God, what am I going to do? I'm a self trainer, I don't have a choice. But I God, what am I going to do? I'm a self-trainer, I don't have a choice. But I have to do known hides, and you mean, I'm telecasting to my dog where the hides are every time. What do I do? What do I do? I think that really, it is doing all these variations in your training. You're going to run off leash in every element, as much as you can. If you can run an off leash vehicle search, do it. If you could run off leash containers, do it, because what you're doing is you're providing your dog with an opportunity to experience and solve that order puzzle, irrespective of where you are. Then the other one I love is stranded handler, right?

Jill Kovacevich: 22:41

So the handler and you know, that's that thing like where it's okay, I want you to sit, sit in this chair and we're just going to let your dog work and you're not going to follow your dog at all, and you're even going to be able to call your alerts from where you're sitting, stranded handler.

Aleks Woodroffe: 22:56

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 22:56

Right. So doing some of that, do some where you're on a two-foot leash or overly responsive.

Aleks Woodroffe: 23:02

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 23:03

Two-foot leash. Your turn in every turn, yep, yep, and you're just right on their butt. Or huge long leash, that's like crazy, right. So try to interject all of those variations so that really what you're working on is the dog's odor drive and the dog's response.

Aleks Woodroffe: 23:20

And you're not predictable.

Jill Kovacevich: 23:21

Right and your response to the dog's response to odor Right and your response to the dog's response to odor Yep, yep.

Aleks Woodroffe: 23:28

So I have a saying that I tell my students, and it is if you choose to handle, often handling is a it's in response to a lacking skill, right, and so we can choose to handle something, knowing that our dog struggles with thresholds. So maybe we hold the leash, we ask our dog to work back, versus, if we're going to be more honest to the handling, we just go with them. And so I think, if we understand it that way, that if we are making a conscious decision to handle something in a certain way don't stop, don't square up, keep moving, whatever it might be it's making a decision to fill in a lacking skill. So, is the lacking skill independence? Is the lacking skill? The dog working pooled odor with me squared up to them? Well, if that's the problem, why don't we purposely create some training to work that problem? And then we don't have to worry about the rules of okay, I have to always square up, or never square up, or whatever it might be.

Jill Kovacevich: 24:27

Right, right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 24:27

Yep, I agree. Yay, cool, all right, let's move on. The next one is don't mix sports, like if you do hunting, you should never do tracking. Or if you do tracking, it's going to affect your scent, scent work or nose work or obedience. Like if you do a lot of obedience, can your dog do nose work? They're just going to go into handler focus.

Jill Kovacevich: 24:51

Well, the biggest one that we ran across at the very beginning, when I started teaching nose work back again in 2010 or 11 or 12 was agility right. So, as soon as I would see an agility handler come in, I'd go oh well, they're going to have a tough time doing this because they don't have any independence away from the dog and the dog's going to keep looking at them and oh God, poor you.

Jill Kovacevich: 25:12

You might want to just forget all that agility and now I realize, oh my God, what a tool to experience, right To experience doing some of these other sports with your dog, because you are improving your dog to handler bond, you are learning to respond to each other, which is communication, irrespective of odor, right, the dogs definitely develop these skill sets that you know move in and out of whatever they're doing. Now, one thing I will say that you do need to do so. For instance, if you are doing multiple scent detection ID, right, so maybe it is tracking, or search and rescue with nose work, or you know. Or shed hunting Shed hunting, yeah. Barn hunt Right, there might be, yeah, especially like barn hunt. So that's a really good example. Right, say the dog at source, you're asking them to paw.

Jill Kovacevich: 26:11

Right and now in nose work they're trying to paw or mouth the boxes, you know. So just recognize that. You could have some concepts that bleed over and then it just becomes a clarity issue. Okay, so we just need to make that clear for myself and for the dog as to what are the differences and what behaviors. You know I I can't really have bleed into this Right. So you know, and a good example of that is um. You know, especially the mouthing that you get of hides from. You know a lot of your labs.

Aleks Woodroffe: 26:47

Yeah, exactly.

Jill Kovacevich: 26:49

Yeah so.

Aleks Woodroffe: 26:50

I have to say that I don't believe the communication between Tana and I would have been as smooth, or is as smooth, if she didn't do two years of agility in the first two years of her life. After two years she was like, nah, I don't really want to do this, and she just wanted to do scent work, okay, fine, but I do believe that doing agility really helped us learn how to move through space more as a team versus. I don't think that we would have same kind of things, little things like it's rear cross on the flat, so the dog turns away from you in front of you and I can just drop my hand and give a direction and she knows to scoop into me and work now on my right side and it's something very simple and a tiny little move but, holy crap, it can be very helpful. It's something I want to train every one of my dogs because it helps you move through that space and allow the dog to continue driving ahead of you and working ahead of you. Yeah, yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 27:44

So for me it's been just the bond, just, you know, being able to kind of tackle, and especially in agility, because agility is so obstacle driven, right it's. So what do I want to say? Like, like, there's specific skills that you are looking for the dog to do at specific time, right yeah, and so it really can build with them a lot of confidence if you do it. And it could be the fallout too, you could end up with a dog that's like overly burdened by whatever other sport you're doing. And they come in and it shows, right, it's like oh, just let me have one thing that I just kind of do on my own.

Aleks Woodroffe: 28:25

Yeah, and scent work is just perfect for them. Yeah, totally so cool, all right. Next one this is a big one. My dog lies.

Jill Kovacevich: 28:35

Well, kathy asked that about. Yeah, see, almost an hour ago, yeah. So I think that part of what happens here and I told Alex my feeling not to make really convoluted answer, but I love convoluted answer, so there you go Is I think it's because we are so handicapped in understanding at all what our dogs are doing that we have a tendency to then focus on oh, my dog's an opportunist, so my dog must be taking the opportunity to try to get the treat over finding source, which to me, it's very clearly that if you even have that phrase passed through your subconscious, if you have it come out consciously, I would very much object and tell you at that point in time that your dog, technically, as a salient being, does not have the capacity to falsify information period yeah, they don't personify them

Jill Kovacevich: 29:35

they don't. They don't have the ability to say oh geez, I think I will right. It's either a learned behavior right where yeah, learn behavior right when? So they have been able to shortcut to getting the treat by certain triggers or cues that they have done before in other searches or under other circumstances, or it's total lack of clarity. So you've either trained it or they have lack of clarity as to what the task is, or you have lack of clarity as to what the task is, or you have lack of clarity as to what your responsibility is in reading your dog right yeah, um, so I find that this kind of thing.

Aleks Woodroffe: 30:15

So an example would be the dog hits on the first container and alerts and then the handler calls it, gets a. No, well, my dog lied. But are we creating that situation? Dogs are reinforced and reinforcement does not mean food always. So reinforcement can be information.

Aleks Woodroffe: 30:34

So if the dog in training gets to the first box, sort of looks back at you and you keep taking that step, then they move forward. Okay, so they have been reinforced. When they check into you and the box is cold that you are going to walk forward because you know where it is. Now in a trial, your dog gets to that first box, looks back at you and you see that look back. So you stop. Now your dog goes oh, there must be a hide in here. Sniff, sniff, give me my cookie. Because they've been reinforced with that information to continue moving. So in training we have to be aware of what we're doing and we have to be aware that we need to be responsive to the dog's changes of behavior so that we are kind of consistent. So when we get to a trial setting and we don't know where the hide is, we're doing the same thing that we would do in trial.

Aleks Woodroffe: 31:23

So in training, if my dog looks back at me on that first box, I'm going to slow down. And my dog looks back at me on that first box, I'm going to slow down. And my dog then has to say, oh no, no, that's fine. Sorry, let me keep going down the line.

Jill Kovacevich: 31:32

Yeah, one of my biggest things that I love to do in containers is build a lot of dog independence and sourcing pathways by doing a lot of it random patterns off leash and not have the in so many ways. As a handler you can't follow your dog around Right Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 31:51

And if it's in a random pattern, you know, and even you can. Even, just so that you don't have a guessing game, we either put a sticky right on the top or right in pencil, on the top of which is my odor box, right, so you're not having a guessing game or just put them at the corners, right, but you're still going to stand back and let the dog work that entire odor puzzle. So the dog gains independence. As to what source looks like in a container search, and then doing the same thing with vehicles is phenomenal and it's just a piece of the training. It's not the whole thing, right, but it's. And then you would put them on leash, then you would put them in the patterns, then you would right, and so for most of my especially at the lower levels where you have major odor available right.

Jill Kovacevich: 32:41

So we're not talking a very large search area with multiple variation in containers. We're talking about the straight. Ort boxes, right, the toolbox, whatever it is. I'm going to actually, at least I've gotten to this point now where I want to be able to exactly what you said not move forward until my dog has a response to odor.

Aleks Woodroffe: 33:03

Yeah, exactly.

Jill Kovacevich: 33:05

And investigating boxes and moving on is exactly that. It's just working the odor pathway. Why would it be any different than if my dog were walking past chairs?

Aleks Woodroffe: 33:14

and tables and that sort of thing. Yeah, totally Cool. All right, the next one. Here's a myth that you should do the warm-up boxes before you go into a search.

Jill Kovacevich: 33:24

Yikes, that you should do the warm-up boxes before you go into a search. Yikes, what are you working, though? And I think this is more a challenge for handlers than it is for the dog, right?

Aleks Woodroffe: 33:36

Yeah, and what?

Jill Kovacevich: 33:37

drives me crazy is when I see the handlers testing their dogs over top of these half-destroyed odor boxes. Just slobbery Slobber that.

Aleks Woodroffe: 33:48

So then what?

Jill Kovacevich: 33:48

are we reinforcing? Are we reinforcing?

Aleks Woodroffe: 33:50

We don't even know.

Jill Kovacevich: 33:51

Yeah, you know. So um and for years I would like with Digger. I would totally avoid him, and same with Izzy. Now Zeke will haul me to the box.

Aleks Woodroffe: 34:02

He likes the visual.

Jill Kovacevich: 34:03

He not just the visual, he will haul me to the odor box. So if I'm walking by and he wants to haul in there, I just go and give it to him. Right, I don't ask him to do it as an ORT pass, I literally will just walk in there and reward it. Yeah, so, and then we?

Aleks Woodroffe: 34:23

keep moving. I'm similar with mine. I found when, because George struggled with containers One, two and then we keep moving. I'm similar with mine. I found when, because George struggled with containers One, two, three, we were getting better. But I did find that if he worked a container before we went in, before the container search, it helped give him a little more context and came in a little bit Like you're looking for a visual object dude, and that seemed to help for him. Like you're looking for a visual object dude and that seemed to help for him. But if we're running containers last and the warm-up boxes are disgusting, it's not worth my time Because I don't know what I'm rewarding. He might be smelling the top and some salmon cookies.

Jill Kovacevich: 34:58

I'm going to jump right into another topic, which is that whole concept of what do I do with my dog from the time that I get out of my car or vehicle to the time that I land at the start line right, and all of that interaction that's going to happen between that space and, oh my God, you should never be treating your dog with treats if you're a food reward dog and don't play with the toy, because that's supposed to be their reward for source.

Jill Kovacevich: 35:25

So you're going to just disturb it and this is one of the biggest.

Jill Kovacevich: 35:34

This is the biggest myth there is, because I firmly believe that if you, you are making it far more difficult for your dog if you're going to walk them across this highly distracting environment. And the reason it's highly distracting is because there are other 30 other dogs who are at least that, who are competing on that same day, at that same time, walking the same pathway. Their odor is in that pathway. Your dog's nose goes to ground. Your dog's nose goes to ground and you're saying, okay, it's okay for you to sniff that now, but, by the way, when we get to the start line, I'm going to flip a switch and you need to forget all that stuff and just find the odor I'm asking you to find Right. So I really find that a lot of the leash engagement, all of that obedience, really is so much more helpful to walk with my dog with a treat, right, looking at me, engaging with me even if I'm going to play with a toy, doing all those pattern games, whatever it takes.

Jill Kovacevich: 36:28

Yeah, just stay engaged with my dog during that whole time frame, even if I'm standing at a gate Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 36:34

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 36:35

And granted, if your food reward and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to be toy reward, I wanted to stay toy reward. But he shows cheese still amazes me how much he loves his cheese. I worry about how much food he's getting I do, but you know, it really really has made his search so much clearer for him. Granted, there's even folks who have the myth of well, just use your travel treats right.

Jill Kovacevich: 37:06

Call them travel treats, which is not really kibble. They're a little better than kibble, but still they're the crunchy O's or whatever, yeah, and then the cheese comes out at source. Well, recently he won't even take the travel treat because he's so enamored by all the distraction on the ground. So the only way I can get his attention is with the cheese or the turkey jerky or the salami to get him back up looking at me. I put him up in the chairs at the way at the stations.

Jill Kovacevich: 37:34

I try to stay on the pavement, not in the grass.

Aleks Woodroffe: 37:38

Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 37:38

I saw a lot of folks this last weekend and we all love our dogs and there's nothing better than to show your dog off to everyone else who's there how much you love your dog and how much they should love your dog. And yet the dogs are. You put them in a highly distracting environment and they are satiating themselves on that environment and then you're taking them into a search and saying, oh, by the way, now you have to do it for me.

Jill Kovacevich: 38:03

Go find Bert Janis Clove or whatever odor I think you should find because it's really important, right, and the dog's going. No, it's not that important.

Aleks Woodroffe: 38:12

I want to go back outside.

Jill Kovacevich: 38:13

I want to go back outside and check out Susie Q, because she's parked in that car next to us and I really think that she's a lovely dog and I don't get enough lovely dog time, so I think I want to go meet Susie Q.

Aleks Woodroffe: 38:25

Yeah, yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 38:27

Problems, problems. Okay, so what about? How about? I got a new one for you. Okay, boy dogs are harder than females, than girl dogs.

Aleks Woodroffe: 38:38

They're different. I think it's personal flavors right as a handler, because I do think that you have different types of work often with them Doesn't mean that they're good or bad. You could get some really nice boy dogs going up. I love my boy dog, I think he's going to be phenomenal. But the process to get there is a little different than I've had with my girl dogs. So would I get another boy, Maybe dogs, so would I get another boy Maybe. But I really like my girl dogs. I like my girl dogs. They want to work and it might be breed dependent. I'm just going to say flat coats mature at like five, six and then boys typically mature a little later.

Jill Kovacevich: 39:19

Yeah, I'm going to say most boy dogs mature much later, right so? I'm always worried, and I'm always, yeah, and I'm always worried about the girl dogs being smarter than I am.

Aleks Woodroffe: 39:31

Oh, they are so smart See, totally so then how are?

Jill Kovacevich: 39:35

how are we going to get along with this? I don't know.

Aleks Woodroffe: 39:38

See, I like my girl dogs because I let them think that what they are working and what they're doing is manipulating me. Right, so if they learn that they get to odor, they have to get a cookie from me Like I am their slave. Because they got to odor, I've won the battle you just solved.

Jill Kovacevich: 39:55

My dog lies, Okay. Which is? You're going to let the dog manipulate you? Yeah?

Aleks Woodroffe: 40:04

totally If they think they can get a cookie from me. So now the dog will lie no, because it's source. It only happens on source, and that's what they have to learn is that they can manipulate you if they get to source how do you do this? That you play dumb, but then when they get to it, oh so I have to get you a cookie. And then they choose to get?

Jill Kovacevich: 40:25

oh, I have to give you another cookie.

Aleks Woodroffe: 40:28

It's just a slightly different on timing maybe, as opposed to being there ready to give the cookie. I'm waiting for you to do the right thing?

Jill Kovacevich: 40:35

Yeah, exactly.

Aleks Woodroffe: 40:36

Do the right thing and you'll get this cookie. Do the right thing and you'll get this cookie right.

Jill Kovacevich: 40:39

Yeah, you let the dog think that they're getting one over. You Like oh crap, I have to. That's a border collie, by the way.

Aleks Woodroffe: 40:49

Male or female.

Jill Kovacevich: 40:49

It's also Dobermans, yeah, male or female, I've seen it with. Really well Dobermans, they think so quickly the synapse is so fast of what they put together as one plus one equals two. They learn stuff before you even know that you did anything for them to learn.

Aleks Woodroffe: 41:04

And now, all of a sudden, you're like where did that come from? And then you watch it Malinois too.

Jill Kovacevich: 41:09

Yeah.

Aleks Woodroffe: 41:10

Amazing, I've seen the Malinois. Yeah, yeah for sure, pick up stuff really fast, really fast. Yep.

Jill Kovacevich: 41:15

So did we get to the end of our list? No, I got three more Okay.

Aleks Woodroffe: 41:18

All right, so FEO, so for exhibition only, which is offered in any CSW, not offered in AKC. But the myth is is that it's a bailout. It's just whatever. You just chose to do it because your day's not going well, so you might as well.

Jill Kovacevich: 41:36

No, well, and you know what We've had? Really wonderful morphing of the concept. Good, right, yeah, really wonderful morphing of the concept, right. So initially, the concept of for exhibition only or for entertainment only, how you like to think of it, the concept was to allow a couple of things to happen. One, that you already filled your trial, or filled as many spaces as you could with qualified title dogs, so you had available spaces available. So once NACSW dropped the requirement that you must have the prior title, right Okay, in order to participate in that level. So technically, you could run FEO without an ORT at every level, including summit, right, right yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 42:24

So you could literally have a dog that has not passed their ORT. Running NW3, running Elite running.

Aleks Woodroffe: 42:33

Summit.

Jill Kovacevich: 42:35

And that I think the concept initially was one to provide trial training experience. Two, to allow hosts to try to fill their trials. Right Then it became I have multiple dogs, so I really would like to have one dog that I run for title. Well, the problem with that kind of became this is on the handler side is that then you're running. Your second dog is cleanup and I did that a lot Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 43:02

And you get to know what's happening. And I would?

Jill Kovacevich: 43:04

yeah, and I would. Then it wasn't so good when I would run the two very different dogs, the fast one first, then bring in Izzy, who's so much more methodical, and ask him to find hides that Digger didn't find, and then switch it. Now Izzy's for title and I'm bringing in Digger oh, the big boy's to come in and show us what we missed, right. So I got off a little bit on the tangent there, but it's more saying that use FEO for what it is valued as, which is it can be experienced. But stay like. Linda Bronkamp does an amazing job. If you've ever watched her run FEO, she runs every dog independently of what she already knows from the dog before. It's just amazing.

Aleks Woodroffe: 43:51

Knowing Linda, she may not remember them all. I love her, I know. True, there might be a surprise hide. Yeah, exactly, I think she's not alone.

Jill Kovacevich: 44:01

I think a lot of us are getting there, you do you kind of go, did we get that one or did we not Right?

Aleks Woodroffe: 44:07

So there's that.

Jill Kovacevich: 44:08

So then, the benefit is that then it morphed into ask for help, right yeah?

Aleks Woodroffe: 44:13

I love that.

Jill Kovacevich: 44:13

So because what we really want to do. You can't really enter trial for title, start to do poorly and then ask to switch to an FEO, because FEO does not. Your scores don't get reported publicly, yeah yeah. So rather than have that become an issue, it created ask for help, which is then you can come in and you can say I want to ask for help. This is absolutely a wonderful thing when you're entering, segueing into NW3, because you can ask for help just by saying I want to know how many hides.

Aleks Woodroffe: 44:53

Now it's nw2, so now you can just explore your nw2. And what if you are an nw2? Dog can't get into an nw2 trial, because they're just not very many. But you have an nw3, you could run feo. Yes, now you can make every search into an nw2 ish. The hide placements aren't the same necessarily but you can ask how many hides and you can kind of play the game as NW2 to keep prepping for it.

Jill Kovacevich: 45:11

And initially, when we started to, as CO started to explain, ask for help, we would say so. If you're having a day and it's just sort of going south and you're not doing and you're really challenged, feel free to ask for help. And I really became an advocate of please don't explain it that way. It may actually be one where you just want to. You're understanding that there's things that you could wonderfully train at this trial opportunity. It has nothing to do with going and you're tanking right and making an admission that you're tanking. Now the challenge is you do have to have the ego that's prepared to come in last Totally.

Jill Kovacevich: 45:47

I did that many times and we know.

Aleks Woodroffe: 45:49

Oh, I've come in last many times. We know how much that bothered me where I'd go.

Jill Kovacevich: 45:52

Oh, my God, I don't want to come in last again publicly. And then there's people out there who will actually go and see how all their colleagues are doing at trial and actually go. Wow, how come they came in and didn't even get 43 points right. Well you don't know what you don't know right. And it very well may be that that team at that point in time went wow, there's wonderful stuff to learn here. I could learn about pooling and trapping, because we've got some great pooling and trapping problems.

Jill Kovacevich: 46:20

So rather than guess on my hides, I'm going to ask for help.

Aleks Woodroffe: 46:24

Yeah, yeah, I did it at Delta, so it was our second to last NW3. And, yeah, I knew that we were out after the first, like I could feel we missed a vehicle hide and then we got to know somewhere else and I'm like, okay, we're done, but in containers, which is our harder element. I just asked how many hides? And the one it was one and it gave me so much information. Holy crap, I saw things that I would have never normally seen, like he's hitting the door to leave, but he's hitting the door to leave to find an edge of an odor cone and I wouldn't have read it like that before. So it was fascinating. It was a lot of great information.

Aleks Woodroffe: 46:58

But, holy crap, you look at my score and it looks like I had a terrible day and I had a fantastic day. Crap, you look at my score and it looks like I had a terrible day and I had a fantastic day. It felt great and I felt like walking out of that trial, I'm almost there Like give me one more trial and we'll be done Right, but you look at, paper and it looks like we're last place.

Jill Kovacevich: 47:14

Holy crap. And I did that through three with Zeke. I have 16, 16 trials, right, and you go. Why would it ever take you that long? Well, I'm a prolific host. I had a lot of trials available to me to run and, secondly, I don't like I'm not a very good self-trainer going to a class with Alex and having her be objective and telling me where our skill sets lie. So I was using trial to help me train. There you go.

Aleks Woodroffe: 47:40

Yeah, cool, All right. Second to last one we've got containers or vehicles must be on leash. Only ever run them on leash. I think we've already covered this one a little bit.

Jill Kovacevich: 47:51

Yeah, you already heard me say it a hundred times Run them off leash. Go off leash, also in trial.

Aleks Woodroffe: 47:57

Wow, also in trial right. So if your dog has the context and understands context of containers and that's an option in a trial, I personally believe that that should be an option and we may not see it until Elite or Summit.

Jill Kovacevich: 48:13

Yeah, but by gosh, and I think it's a huge training opportunity before then to actually have the dogs understand the odor pathway in containers as opposed to working a pattern. If you put out random containers and just put out one, hide, watch your dog. They're going to work the pathway to source. Then you start to put them in rows. Now guess what? You're immediately going to see the dog work that pattern. They're going to go up the row and down the other one. If they've done enough containers right.

Jill Kovacevich: 48:41

Their context is to work the pattern that the context of the containers are presented in. So it's really quite amazing, because I think that's when the dog's puzzle becomes a little bit more complex, because of all of the odor that is investigatory, that they need to investigate on those other containers versus in the environment. They need to investigate on those other containers versus in the environment. When it's more of a random pattern, they work it more off the environment than they do off the container that's next to it versus a pattern. So I really love to be able to do that for the benefit of the dog experiencing how to solve source in a container search Now vehicles.

Jill Kovacevich: 49:22

Very interesting, right, because I love it, yeah, that you can do a lot of the same. And I think that the context because really what you want to have happen is you want your dog in both of those situations, and I would say even in buried and AKC containers you want the context. You want the dog coming in and not searching the universe. The dog should come in and search those objects. So how do you make those available to the dog so that the dog knows what to do or hold them as important in context? And I think that's where the leash comes from.

Aleks Woodroffe: 49:59

Right, we automatically right, we bring them back now in trial.

Jill Kovacevich: 50:03

I think the reason why we have that is one we need to make it a shorter search and and safe.

Aleks Woodroffe: 50:09

So often our container right are not contained. Yeah, we.

Jill Kovacevich: 50:14

You know, the dog's going to go all over the place a lot of time right. So there's reasons why we've taken those two contexts and said especially with vehicles, right, very rarely you vehicles is hard yeah any kind of an enclosed environment. Um, so that's why I think for trial it says it must be on leash, but in training dang use.

Jill Kovacevich: 50:35

use every avenue you have, just like we talked about with the leash work, to do an off leash, short leash, long leash, let them work a large odor edge, going way out away and working back in. And that may happen with wind that kind of thing, or shade pulling odor away Yep. And you can even do it with one vehicle right when we take Yep totally.

Jill Kovacevich: 51:00

And the ones that of course I love now are the high wind, you know, let's get 40 miles an hour or stronger and and have our have that set that hide and have your dog find that hide. And I think one of the best ways you can start with doing that not to segue off into some la la land, but use those wheel wells and put it on the bright caliber because you're going to get a good surface area collection. Yeah.

Aleks Woodroffe: 51:21

That's a good way to start. That's a good surface area collection. Yeah, yeah, that within the tire way to start.

Jill Kovacevich: 51:24

That's a good way to start in high wind, so the dog recognizes it what's next?

Aleks Woodroffe: 51:29

all right, our last one so, and this kind of goes into a little bit of like popular popular culture, um, but handler is the weak link. We also see a lot of stickers and badges lately that say worthless handler. Which kind of like feed into that right Of like. We have no value whatsoever. We're always terrible Dope on the rope, yeah, and in some ways it refers to us having to allow our dogs to be independently working, but at the same time, we have a role.

Jill Kovacevich: 52:06

We could be good, not only do we have a role, we have a huge responsibility. This is one of my soapboxes, right, we have an equal responsibility for odor recognition. We have an equal responsibility for odor importance. If we have no skill set in recognizing our dog working odor, if we have no skill set in recognizing our dog working odor, odor will not be important. We will constantly be guessing and or distrusting our dog in the odor we're asking our dog to find Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 52:41

So to me, that whole responsibility of odor availability and also then setting our hides, so in self-training, setting our hides so that we have odor available. So if we don't even know how to do that, basically, when you say you're a worthless handler, you're not part of the team. The team includes you and the dog and it not only includes and that doesn't diminish at all your role during the search, as your primary dog is the one who's hunting. The dog is the primary hunter. You are not the hunter, the dog is, but you need to be able to read the odor information the dog is communicating and do sufficient training so that your dog has clarity of purpose and you have clarity of purpose. So it should say awesome handler Should say awesome team.

Jill Kovacevich: 53:28

Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 53:29

Yep.

Jill Kovacevich: 53:30

It's both parts. Yeah, there's two ends of the leash. And even when we make mistakes. So one of my big pet peeves and this goes to my dog lies You're getting quiet. Yeah, I know so you get a no you get a no, and what is? What does the handler say? So I'm going to tease some of my friends who say who tease some of my friends who say Jill said no oh yeah. Judge said no. Bob said no Alex said no, must be no Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 54:03

The other one is oh no. Is oh no right? Like oh, how could? You have made that mistake.

Aleks Woodroffe: 54:10

Oh, yeah, and then the dog feels it oh my gosh.

Jill Kovacevich: 54:13

yes, you just, you just basically basically said to the dog no, no versus information, versus its information of of going wow, my fault, I. I constantly am like my bad, that was my bad. Sorry, buddy, I don't even like, because I've said sorry before. Well, my dog's already not going to get a cookie right or not?

Aleks Woodroffe: 54:36

going to get the treat or the toy.

Jill Kovacevich: 54:38

Yeah, so they already know that there's a disturbance in the reinforcement. Yeah, exactly, the the the fee, the you know yeah. The source be with you is not with us at that point in time Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 54:55

We violated the zone or whatever.

Jill Kovacevich: 54:57

Right. And how now can I motivate my dog to keep going and keep trying to locate source Right? So I will constantly I may even say, oh my bad, but we're close Keep working right, because, especially at Elite, I feel very confident that my dog has locked it down and even if we're in maybe a pooling and trapping problem, there's still source that we're working somewhere right, it's not like it's in a different universe.

Jill Kovacevich: 55:26

So I feel pretty confident about encouraging my dog to keep working. Secondly, I take responsibility for that because ultimately it is again either lack of clarity for the dog as to that other puzzle, lack of clarity of communication for the handler as to what the dog was communicating, and ultimately it is a training responsibility for me. My dog's not got to go out and train themselves.

Aleks Woodroffe: 55:53

Nope, nope, so I have to set it up. Yes, Yep. Yep.

Jill Kovacevich: 55:57

Exactly so take it Cool, take it, own it, own it. We got to know, yes, we got to know. We can keep working, let's keep working.

Aleks Woodroffe: 56:15

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 56:15

Let's do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, love it. Okay, all right, that was it All right, yeah. So there's our podcast guys for myth busting, and I still you know, even having all of the degrees I have in speech, that is one word. That's very difficult because technically, when you're doing it in speech, they tell you you have to make the th go up, right, so that you don't wedge it right into the next word Myth. There we go. Myth busters we just busted some myths there. There we go.

Jill Kovacevich: 56:48

So, if you have any, any other topics that you want us to jump into on our next podcast, please be sure to let us know. We're so happy to have all of our listeners, you know, just checking in to see where we're going, and we are more than willing to just chat pretty much about anything um. So thanks for joining us yeah, well, and scent work knows work related oh yeah we have search work related.

Aleks Woodroffe: 57:13

We're just gonna search work yeah, or odor detection, sniffing.

Jill Kovacevich: 57:18

We're gonna come up with a whole sentence of synonyms okay, okay, okay, all right, so keep on sniffing everybody. Thanks for joining us. Bye, thank you.