Scent Detection Myths Debunked- PART ONE

This month Jill Kovacevich and Aleks Woodroffe, your CO-Hosts, tackle a wide range of myths circulating in scent detection sports ("Nosework"? "Scent Work"? we dive into that too!). Drawing from their experience as trainers, judges, officals and competitors, they systematically dismantle misconceptions that might be limiting your dog's potential OR your perception of your dog's limitations!

The conversation dives into three critical areas: myths about dogs, handlers, and the environment. Ever heard that panting dogs can't detect odor? Or that small dogs are at a disadvantage? Perhaps you've been told fast-working dogs are inherently better performers? These are just a few of the beliefs the hosts analyze and refute with compelling examples from their experiences.

Whether you're new to scent sports or a seasoned competitor, this episode offers fresh perspectives that will transform how you approach training and trials. Listen now, and stay tuned for the second installment where they'll tackle HANDLER myths that might be sabotaging your search success!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Scent Work Mythbusting
• 8:37 Nose Work vs. Scent Work Terminology
• 12:11 Pairing, Odor Obedience, and Distractions
• 21:32 High vs. Low Odor Concentration
• 31:41 Gear Myths: Harnesses and Booties
• 42:51 Dog Myths: Panting and Finding Odor
• 49:14 Speed, Drive, and Small Dog Myths
• 57:23 Staying Too Long and False Alerts

Transcript

Jill Kovacevich: 0:15

Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast for April for the Canine Scent Fix. I'm Jill Kovacevich and I'm here with Alex Woodroffe, our co-host, and we're here to talk about and it's really hard to say, by the way myths in nose work and scent work as myth busters Try saying that four times fast. So really excited to do this topic. We have a really fun list that Alex and I gleaned partly from some responses we got off Facebook pages, so we're going to jump right in Just real quick. What we're going to try to do is divide the conversation amongst the three things that we think really help define scent detection sports and nose work or scent work, and that is topics that relate to the dog, topics that relate to the handler and then topics that relate to our environment. So that will just help us so that it doesn't feel quite so bouncing around to various different topics and not really being able to talk about what myths we need to bust.

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:29

So let's get started. I think a spot that we should start with is this is our own opinions, right? So I?

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:38

do think that you're always going to get somebody who says no, this is truth, so these are our own opinions, take them or leave them. If you're yelling at your screen because you are listening to us and you're like, no, that's for real, it's your own opinion, right? And so these are myths that are often out there, and from the list that Jill put out, she's like, hey, anybody have some myths and they lined up with a lot of our own. But a lot of them are trainers or judges or CEOs, people who see a lot of dogs. So we're mostly in agreement through there. So just kind of a FYI before we get going.

Jill Kovacevich: 2:14

So that's a good segue, because really what we're saying is that what we believe in life, and certainly about anything we're passionate about, has a lot to do with our experience. Like what have we experienced in life and in this case in nose work or scent work with our dogs. And then secondly, like what experience meaning not just what we've done but expertise do we bring to the table? That might shape that opinion as well? Right, because I can certainly say that a lot of my things that I felt very deeply about, I had very big feelings about these things, have changed over the last 14, 15 years of doing nose work. Right, they've changed a lot.

Jill Kovacevich: 3:01

So it's not. We don't want anyone to feel like we're discounting what you have really big feelings about. It's more of a discussion just to kind of open our minds and realize that hey, there's a lot of different ways to look at a lot of different stuff. So let's just jump right in and get started, cool.

Aleks Woodroffe: 3:21

All right, so maybe I'll read off the list. The first one that we kind of pulled up to see to talk about is nose work versus scent work. There's definitely some beliefs that scent work means only AKC. The new one, asca, is scent detection, and then nose work only means any CSW, right. So then we get kind of into little peg holes. It's all the same thing You're searching for sport odors, whether they are personal or they're essential oils, the concept's the same, it doesn't matter.

Jill Kovacevich: 3:54

And what's really fun is when you start to talk. Listen to a lot of the professional podcasts and these are people who are not doing this for sport and they use the words nose work or scent work. So that should establish for us that it really is canine scent detection of whatever odor we, as a handler, are asking our dogs to find. That's the dog detecting odor odor, so maybe we should just call it odor detection.

Aleks Woodroffe: 4:27

let's just make a new word yeah, yeah, I like I find that when I like I've got a camp coming up, what do I call it? It's not scent work, because we're teaching nose work, we're teaching necsw, we're teaching akc, like it's doesn't matter, we're looking for essential oils, and so I end up going into it doesn't matter, we're looking for essential oils, and so I end up going into sniffy camp.

Jill Kovacevich: 4:47

There you go.

Aleks Woodroffe: 4:48

Because where do you go with it? Because there's so many loaded terms in there. But I think that's kind of where it comes back to is we're all playing the same game. We're all out there looking for cute tips and having fun doing it, so I don't think it matters what we call it.

Jill Kovacevich: 5:00

Right, and I think that we're going to find that, as we get better and better, as sport dog enthusiasts right, those are going to even the venues are going to meld and gain more respect for each other. If you will Possibly yeah, have uh poor events hosted by any name you want to call it, you can have really great events, um, and really great trials, um, hosted and participated in by whatever you call it, right? So so I think that we just need to to be willing to kind of uh, you know, look at it in that regard, right.

Jill Kovacevich: 5:43

Yeah, yeah, for sure Cool, All right number two.

Aleks Woodroffe: 5:48

Oh, wow, we already did one. We did one. There you go. Okay, let's move on to number two. Number two and I'm kind of shortening a little bit, it kind of came up in a few different ways is the belief that if you do a lot of pairing, or you do a lot of pairing or you do a lot of primary so searching for food or Kong or a tennis ball that your dog will then really struggle by alerting on food or toys or distractors within their search areas. And this is a myth. It's totally a myth because it's just a step within the game and, honestly, like even with my dogs, I still do primary searches. If I'm like out of my mind so tired I just got back, my dogs are driving me crazy. Yeah, I throw out a whole bunch of food in different locations. They go out, they have so much fun, they enjoy it, they're getting their reinforcement and then we all can settle. Does it make them want to find food in a search? Nope, the context really matters. They understand when odor's present, they're working for odor.

Jill Kovacevich: 6:48

So I think that's going to be a little important teaching to work through novelty. Well, and isn't that trying to implant, like our handler, understanding of the huge sophistication that our dogs have in their olfactory system, and trying to like, oh wait, but if I knew there was a hot brownie and by hot I mean heated, right, because that's going to be more odiferous in this box and I was not allowed to touch the box, you know. No, now I'm going to. You know, try to really try to open it and dig at it. So I think it's that kind of concept. Is that we try to apply this unilateral thinking of humans to what our dogs do? Our dogs have an amazing ability to differentiate millions and millions. It's parts per trillion, right?

Aleks Woodroffe: 7:37

So it goes back to that.

Jill Kovacevich: 7:38

Yeah, it goes back to that whole. There's a ton of podcasts out there, guys, if you want to listen to some. One was the gentleman in the UK who asked Springers who's finding one part per trillion in whiskey barrels.

Aleks Woodroffe: 7:51

And they have measured that they have measured.

Jill Kovacevich: 7:53

Yeah, stu Phillips, they've measured it by a laboratory as to that is the quantification, so they really can differentiate and really that comes back to a training right A training how do I get my dog? How do I provide my dog with an opportunity to experience and learn?

Aleks Woodroffe: 8:14

right, so it kind of goes to odor value.

Jill Kovacevich: 8:18

Yes, that my odor that I'm asking him to find, is more important than right Even in presence of other things. Yeah, the steak that's in the container in the summit or elite search, or the beef jerky Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 8:34

Right, yeah, yeah, so kind of along the same lines. This came up as a myth as well, are we moving on?

Jill Kovacevich: 8:40

Did we get that?

Aleks Woodroffe: 8:41

Not really, oh okay, I want to kind of hang on with it. Okay, so this is number three as well, but it goes back is if a dog is fully odor obedient or obedient to odor, there's no need to train distractions. So I think this is kind of going into that same concept of it. Yeah, we can have a ton of odor value and the dog really knows value, but there's always going to be something. And if we can train the dogs to choose, like discrimination, of other valuable smells out there whether it means it's food or desirable thing or maybe just pee that it's still worth working against. So we have to work against any sort of distractions and teach them as it.

Aleks Woodroffe: 9:22

I have to say, even with George I was actually kind of a little story, but I was working with him up in Durango and we cleared a space and I was just kind of playing with them after I was teaching and there was no more odor. We picked up all the odor but he was sourcing and he was sourcing really hard and he had no interest over there beforehand. And I turn around the corner and I see it's a big ball, a bag of tennis balls. He had no interest on it whatsoever. He totally ignored that whole space, moved through. It worked it really nicely, no changes of behavior. Once he knew the game was done, we were just picking up hides, cleaning up the space. Then he sourced the balls and he was taught primary with balls before I worked odor. So it kind of shows a little bit of like yeah, they still have the understanding that they can source it, but they have context.

Jill Kovacevich: 10:08

Odor value is more strong. Yes, and the context is huge and I really think that and this also goes to the breed you're going to have different breeds that are able to zone in on the odor. You're asking your dog to find and ignore or differentiate it from the rest of the universe. I'm not even going to say environment, I'm going to say the rest of the universe. So there's some breeds that will do that because of their DNA versus, for instance, the border collie.

Jill Kovacevich: 10:41

So, just going to use this as an example, because we often talk about the border collie, so just going to use this as an example, because we often talk about the border collie, they even will talk about the border collie as being similar to autistic right, so that the overwhelming part of the universe can be so big that it takes on a piece that's much larger than the odor that you're asking them find. So really, it's not any different whether I'm working my dog to find the odor. I'm asking him to find whether I have noise surfaces, whether I have pee zones, right, critter zones. You really need a methodology for working your dog in those kinds of distractions and building the context of the search that we are doing yeah, is that fair to?

Jill Kovacevich: 11:31

say I think so, and that can overcome those distractions yeah, yeah, cool, all right, so totally different.

Aleks Woodroffe: 11:39

But on the same environmental piece is okay. The myth that higher odor or lower odor is easier, slash harder. So this kind of goes into AKC oh my God it's so strong. Or any CSW is so much lighter. It's more difficult or easier because the dogs can find it. Whatever. Whatever the dogs can find it right.

Jill Kovacevich: 11:59

So by higher or lower you mean volume, right yeah?

Aleks Woodroffe: 12:02

concentration.

Jill Kovacevich: 12:03

At least we're going to presume that it's volume of that odor that is dissipating into the environment that our dogs are then using to measure and quantify and get to source.

Aleks Woodroffe: 12:13

Yeah, yeah for sure. And here's the evidence against this myth is you can have dogs that are doing amazing in AKC.

Aleks Woodroffe: 12:22

You can have dogs that are doing amazing in NECSW. They're out there right, there's lots of them, and you can also have dogs that do great in both, because they can understand those higher and lower levels. Does it affect the search? I believe yes, for certain dogs. I do see it, at least in my own, and I know I've seen it in many of my students' dogs, but not all where. When they're going from AKC weekend, lots of strong odor, smaller spaces. It's overwhelming how much odor is in there. Sometimes it might take them a search to get adjusted and then next weekend, nacsw, it might take a search again to get it adjusted.

Aleks Woodroffe: 12:57

If you're not doing that training in between, other dogs I've seen to have no problem whatsoever. They can go back and forth and totally switch, no problem, um. So I think it's something to consider that they are different and if the dog is used to working at a lighter concentration, um, so a lot more NECSW searches, especially higher level, that they may struggle with. How much odor is coming off from an AKC hide? They might think the hide is a little further away from source and I've watched dogs do this as an AKC judge and I'm like afterwards you did NACSW recently, didn't you? And the handler normally says yes, and you can watch the dog work into the odor picture and then skirt around the hide at exactly the same distance and keep working at the exact same distance until they go oh, I'm around it, it's in. And then they push deeper to get to the stronger point and once that adjustment's been made they seem to be pretty good and they can do it no problem.

Jill Kovacevich: 13:51

Well, and I think again, this goes back to providing your dog with an opportunity to experience right. So and it's so many ways, it can even be. So, if all you have is any CSW odor and you don't understand like what might be the strength for AKC, you can still do it.

Jill Kovacevich: 14:07

I mean what you would be, doing is right is either just using more hides for, and closer in right, smaller areas and then, when you want to, on the AKC side, experience, um, that lower quantification of odor in a larger environment, there you go, you can put it in a box, put your box in a box, and now you can also use a really old hide.

Aleks Woodroffe: 14:33

Yes, so if you've been using a hide with the same Q-tip for a while six weeks plus that now becomes a hide. That's kind of the same quantity that you can start saying, hey, it's almost like an NACSW hide. One cute tip still, and then you can mimic it.

Jill Kovacevich: 14:48

Well, and for us to say scientifically oh no, we know this is true. We would have to do right, some kind of controlled group and do all that kind of quantification of data, blah, blah, blah. What we can tell you is, based on our experience, that what we are suggesting is a matter of exposing your dog to the various levels of odor and the various types of odor in various environments. I mean, it's kind of as easy as that, yep totally Cool, all right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 15:18

So okay, kind of on the same lines. Odor is predictable, nice myth.

Jill Kovacevich: 15:24

Of course it is of course it is of course it is. I'm going to put, I'm going wait, wait, wait. I'm going to put this hide, um, and I'm going to just put it on a chair and I know my dog's going to come in and the dog's got an accessible hide and they're going to go right to it. Yeah, every.

Aleks Woodroffe: 15:44

Every time, every time, 100% Right. But I think we can also say, because there's the other swing, that odor is not predictable at all. I think that's also a myth, because I think we can use a little bit of judgment, because otherwise why would you have a judge that's inexperienced? Anybody could throw out hides if there's no value and the odor is not predictable whatsoever, right. So I do think that there's a middle ground in there.

Jill Kovacevich: 16:07

So maybe predictable is our problem word.

Jill Kovacevich: 16:11

Maybe, and maybe it's really just learning about odor and having certain expectations based on our understanding of odor in environments and varied environments, right, and varied placement, hide placement so you know a really big about if you're going to like NW2s or what is it advanced is a really good example. Those are going to start to be those inaccessible hides. So, as trainers or handlers, self-training, what do we start to do? We start to make that hide very unassessable for the dog and what we could be doing is making odor unavailable, right, right. So that can really be a key to understanding. So the predictability may be more in quantification of what odor is available than it is in terms of can I predict what odor is absolutely going to do?

Jill Kovacevich: 17:08

If I put on my science hat, I would have to have you know, essential oil goggles to be able to tell exactly where those molecules are going. But ultimately, you know, what I can do is I can use my dog. I can use my dog to show me what odor is doing in any environment, based on their response and granted some of that's going to be based on the dog's training, the dog's experience.

Jill Kovacevich: 17:37

But we're going to talk a little bit about that a little bit later too, about different levels of experience. And once you gain that concept of how to really observe odor, you should be able to read any dog of any level and, whether or not right, if the dog has odor, response has at least odor recognition, whether or not they have odor importance, willing to solve the puzzle or the source can be more varied, but if I've got a dog that has odor recognition for the odor I'm asking them to find I should be able to read that odor in that environment at that point in time with that dog.

Aleks Woodroffe: 18:17

Agreed.

Aleks Woodroffe: 18:17

So, okay, let's take exactly what you just said and let's talk about another myth.

Aleks Woodroffe: 18:22

I know we going to put it later, but it seems to make sense if we throw it in right now and that is the dog and white demo dog, kind of. There's a debate going on out there, um, there's a lot of strong opinions and the myth is a dog and white or demo dog that can't find a hide means that the hide is not able to be found at all or that the dog was not good good enough for whatever right. Um, and so it's kind of going along that same lines of the dog is showing you odor information and as long as the judge, ceo, whoever is watching it and, honestly, teachers in a class, as long as you are watching the dog's information and using that information to understand what's happening, it almost doesn't matter the level of the dog, although here AKC does have requirements. An accomplished search dog that is used by the judge to evaluate the real world difficulty of the search Demo dog helps the judge to understand whether the odor is behaving as they expected and allows them to adjust the hide locations accordingly. Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 19:29

And they will also hopefully differentiate for us any distractions that may be overwhelming right, completely oh.

Jill Kovacevich: 19:35

Lord, you know I'm doing an NW1 and now I've got this poor little NW1 dog or novice dog and their nose is glued to the ground. I might want to consider right. I think some of it really comes back to not only trust your dog but trust any dog right. Because even if you have a dog that comes in and a good example might be for any CSW and I think this happened with one of our trials, alex, where the only dog that we had to do, the dog and white for vehicles had never done vehicles- Right yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 20:13

So and I just felt like, well, he'll tell me something about odor, right? And that's exactly what happened. So. So I think that a lot of how you use the dog in white has a lot to do with the coach or the CO or the judge, and some people feel confident making changes. Others don't, because they feel confident that they want to use their measure. Now here's another piece. The dog in white is like the very first, so this is the first dog that comes in in a class.

Jill Kovacevich: 20:47

Yeah, you know when you're, when you're in class and you're, or with your training partners, and you set the hides and your dog's going to go first. Your dog is dog in white, your dog is the demo dog, right, right. So at that point, so it's really not any different. We're just going to run a first dog so that we can at least glean uh, you know, whether or not odor was available, where odor is available, where my distractions might be right, and what else is going on in the search yeah, in order like and some of it's totally not related.

Jill Kovacevich: 21:19

Yeah, well, and we're also measuring time and boundaries, right? Yeah, yeah to, yeah, to see if that's all all kind of, you know, within a reasonable means for that level that we are trialing at for that day. So I think that you know, if you ever feel like, oh my gosh, you know the judge or the CO for that trial, you know, didn't fairly consider X, y, z Next time you go to do practice or go to do a class, run your dog as the first dog out and it does feel that way, right, because you'll watch your dog and your dog may not have as much odor available, guess what as the second dog or the dog that's now going to run 20 minutes later right, yeah, exactly.

Aleks Woodroffe: 22:01

So I've got an example on this. One is uh, we every once in a while I'll go to parks for class, right. And so I'm in a public park and the dogs are working and I'm seeing changes of behavior that don't really belong to the hides I've set for the class and the challenges and the struggles that we did, the puzzles, um, and so the dog is working and working and narrowing in onto a single location. As a trainer coach, I'm going, I trust that dog. I go over there and I find a hide it's not mine and I'm going to trust the dog and I couldn't even smell it. So it's very light, it's been out there for a while, but it doesn't matter.

Aleks Woodroffe: 22:41

The dog told us some great information and somebody else found another hide at that same space, right? So obviously somebody who was training there before lost their hides or forgot to pick them up, and it affects my class. But I'm going to trust that dog in white, the first dog that's out there working the search. They become that demo dog for everybody else. Well, and a really simple.

Jill Kovacevich: 23:00

Simple way to understand it too is to say simple way to understand it too is to say okay, so I want to train lower level novice NW1 accessible hides. So I'm going to put this hide up underneath the chair. The first dog that comes in really has a challenge to locate that hide. Then my thought process should be I don't have as much odor available right Now, given it is dependent upon that dog's experience and whether or not that dog understands odor recognition, odor importance.

Jill Kovacevich: 23:30

But given that they have a level one right, level one, nw1, novice, whatever experience they should be able to give me that feedback of that level dog right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 23:44

So, and then?

Jill Kovacevich: 23:44

I go to do inaccessibles and I do inaccessibles, and now the dogs are just slamming it right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 23:51

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 23:51

Well, I could potentially have an inaccessible meaning, that the dog can't get their nose on the tin or tube, which is kind of how we define it, right, yeah?

Aleks Woodroffe: 24:02

yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 24:02

But I've created this wonderful pocket of odor all around that source.

Aleks Woodroffe: 24:07

And they feel so confident about it.

Jill Kovacevich: 24:09

So the dogs are just slamming it home. I think I did for one of my online courses. I did. I want you to set an accessible hide that works as an inaccessible, or set an inaccessible hide that works as accessible.

Aleks Woodroffe: 24:25

That's funny, because I did that for my class this week online yeah right, because that's a challenge.

Jill Kovacevich: 24:31

Yeah, that's a challenge, it is to set those. Yeah.

Aleks Woodroffe: 24:33

Yeah, so I think we kind of covered some of the dog and white stuff. I know there's a lot of other myths out there about them, but that's one little piece of it and I think that's a worthwhile one to kind of talk about. All right, well, the next one, let me just say let me just go for the integrity of the sport right and trialing.

Jill Kovacevich: 24:56

All the organizations have asked the official whether it's a judge or it's the CEO to use some kind of measure right and make adjustments accordingly. So so for CEOs and judges, it really is a tool that helps us. We can't guarantee pass rates from it Right, but it is a tool that at least helps us bring the, the measurement, bring the test within the confines or parameters of the level we are trialing.

Aleks Woodroffe: 25:24

Agreed, yeah, yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 25:26

So that's, I think, the purpose of Dogamoin.

Aleks Woodroffe: 25:28

I agree, all right, the next one, and this is still under environment.

Jill Kovacevich: 25:33

Oh yeah, we forgot. Can the dog in white be of higher level or lower level, or is it mandatory that it be one level? I was thinking about this.

Aleks Woodroffe: 25:42

So I do have an opinion on this. I think a higher level dog is totally appropriate for lower levels, as long as two things One, they're showing the odor information, not just hitting a hide, and they can show you the extra stuff within the search area, because I find some higher level dogs are just going to run to the hide, expect payment and then be done, and that's not as useful to me to judge the search area, to understand the search area. So I do want a dog that will show me the odor information. Where is it pooling? Where is it trapping? Where are the lines? Is my boundaries now going to allow them to work or not work? So I think all of that's quite important and a higher level dog can do that. But I don't think every dog is a great dog and white or a demo dog, and it's not like you get a choice necessarily. Sometimes you just take what you've got. But you can always use the odor information that they're giving you.

Jill Kovacevich: 26:33

You just take what you've got, but you can always use the odor information that they're giving you. Yes, and I was going to say for the lower level dog again now, granted, if you're at the very beginning where you're not sure if the demo dog or the dog in white has odor recognition.

Aleks Woodroffe: 26:45

Yeah, that's where it gets harder, that's tough.

Jill Kovacevich: 26:48

But if the dog comes in and you do have some immediate recognition, what that dog is telling you is important.

Aleks Woodroffe: 26:57

Agreed. You can't ignore it.

Jill Kovacevich: 26:58

Yeah, and I don't think that it's a good thing or a bad thing Like in AKC oh well, you know those judges, they always run their own dog as dog, and white. That could be purely based on, quite frankly, convenience right, because it is challenging as a host to line up dogs and white right or demo dogs. And then on the flip side that you know dog and white is, you know I mean. Often, like with any CSW, we talk about it being an honor, like we're going to pick you know, whatever.

Jill Kovacevich: 27:34

But I'll tell you what on the host, with my host hat on it's all often really availability because, um, with the mountain dog trials, um, most of our volunteers are also entered in the trial. Yeah, on another day, yeah, either on another day or they're waiting to get into that day. Yeah, and they're right, so it can be a crapshoot as to who you can have to be dogamite, so agreed, totally cool, all right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 28:04

Um, environment. So there is a myth that you have to wear a harness, and I I kind of like that we can talk about this one, because it is a pet peeve of mine. Uh, because there are people out there that come to me and is that because neither of your dogs wear a harness?

Aleks Woodroffe: 28:20

yes, because they hate them? Why should I make my dog be miserable in their gear? Just because of context and honestly, I think it's easier to handle on a harness because your leash is a little further back and it's not swinging around their neck, but a harness is not required. You can search, and I love like the thickest collars that I can get away with. So then if they're pulling a little bit, it's not going to really affect them, but a nice thick collar is just as fine. I do think it's a little more challenging to handle. The leash can easily get caught up because it's going to sink underneath their collar potentially, but they don't have to wear a harness.

Jill Kovacevich: 29:01

See, my experience with the collar is actually for the opposite reason, because the harness didn't fit well, so it was sliding.

Aleks Woodroffe: 29:10

So if it's sliding, then it just right.

Jill Kovacevich: 29:11

versus the collar, it could almost like just loop around. Yeah was sliding, so it's sliding, then it just right. Versus the collar, it could almost like just move around. Yeah, totally, yeah, so totally. But there's been times when I've gone oh geez, maybe I should start fitting my dog with a harness, or you know, stop using just the collar. I will say that on my way to and from searches I use my leash down around the shoulders right, yeah, almost like a harness yeah to avoid the pull on that trachea.

Aleks Woodroffe: 29:39

But I've seen I use a cookie on the nose, absolutely, oh my gosh. Yes, cookie on the nose.

Jill Kovacevich: 29:45

Take this dress off your shoulder, I haven't seen any dog that, oh my God, that dog needs a, or oh my God gosh, that dog needs a collar. I think it's a handler preference and both work very, very well.

Aleks Woodroffe: 29:58

I think it's a dog preference too. You just have to figure out what works best for your team.

Jill Kovacevich: 30:01

But isn't it exposure too?

Aleks Woodroffe: 30:11

Not always so. In the horse world they call them girthy horses, and they just are always nervous about the girth around their ribs, and so I do wonder if there's something similar happening with the dogs. Some dogs are very uncomfortable with any sort of constriction around their rib cage, so I don't know if it has some sort of like. Even the nerve endings are in a different spot but some dogs are very sensitive to it. My dogs hate their harnesses like, just like will run away. Versus a collar they're totally happy for.

Jill Kovacevich: 30:35

But I also, and don't your dogs spend a lot of time naked?

Aleks Woodroffe: 30:40

Yeah, they do. Yeah, yeah, they like to be naked. But I have tried harnesses and we track and harness and I kind of like tracking and harness because it keeps them from running. We hike in harnesses but I can tell it bothers them and the only reason why they're going to go through with it is because they get to go hike and hiking is super fun. But it's funny because odor and scent work is really high value for them. But they still. It's a different search. I don't get the same excitement. I don't get even reaching, so going up or going under, they get a little bit more resistant.

Jill Kovacevich: 31:12

So now don't anybody feel that because Alex and I happen to both run our dogs on collars, that we are anti-harness. We are not saying that. What? We're saying is that the gear that we choose, right.

Jill Kovacevich: 31:28

But you know, when we first started nose work, back in 2010, right, it was like, oh, I need to get a harness for digger, yeah, right, and I, and I started him right away on a harness. And I think where that really comes from is the context of the gear. That's the discussion that we really had at the beginning, which was, hey, you're gonna want your dog to be able to step into their gear. Have the context that says, oh, I'm here to search, right. And that gear was then part of that switch that said, this is the sport we're doing, right. So, and especially if you have dogs that maybe do different sports, you can talk to a lot of different people about what they use for tracking versus search work, maybe what they use for agility versus right Obedience, you know, or even dock diving right, stuff like that. I do know that with swimming, zeke still has the full handle right, because I can't get him out of the water.

Jill Kovacevich: 32:30

So I've got to have something that will allow me to pull them out of the water. Yep.

Aleks Woodroffe: 32:36

Cool. So along the same line as the gear, we also have booties. And what does the booties mean? Like, oh no, my dog's totally fine on surfaces, so I don't need to wear booties, but you don't have to be afraid of a surface to use them. My dogs are not afraid of surfaces, but I put booties on them on slippery surfaces. One for safety, but also because my dog gets stressed because he can't turn as fast as he wants to, and when I put boots on him he slows down so that he doesn't have to overturn and he feels much more comfortable.

Jill Kovacevich: 33:10

You're speaking my language? Yeah, yeah, right. Turn and he feels comfortable. You're speaking my language? Yeah, yeah, right. And I really think that what happens is, again we'd have to do this huge scientific study to say, oh my dog, actually the first time they stepped onto that liquid floor, right, it was a visual disturbance and they had fear as a response. So I really I don't know that we can say whether it's odor, it's visual, it's tactical, what they feel through their right. There can just be and I maintain because my dogs, or at least Zeke, at home we have that laminate flooring and he can get his brain telling him to move quicker than his feet are able to function on that floor.

Jill Kovacevich: 33:56

Yeah, yeah, I think it's almost like a yes, it's almost a disconnect in coordination where it's run, run, run right, because he's like a speed demon and really wants to run fast, and so I think that that became some learned behavior of, like you say, and, amazingly enough, the booties slow them down because now they have the ability to make those turns and create that tactical sensation. My biggest pet peeve with it is once you train, once you decide to train your dog with booties not every dog is going to need them for every search, not every dog is going to need them for every search but if you recognize that your dog, um, so I put my booties on zeke and they stay on all day long and he wears them for every single search, and that is because I thought, I felt that they became his superman, uh, gear okay, so yeah, yeah so it wasn't any different than the harness, and when they put on the harness it was a cake.

Jill Kovacevich: 34:56

that made him very confident in what he was doing. His booties do that. Those are Superman booties. They go on. He can handle um, whether it's rocks outside, a dirt that might get stuck up in his paws, wet grass I don't have to, I just don't have. I don't think does my. Oh, what's the surface of that gym? Should I put my dog's booties on? I really feel like that just causes anxiety for handlers and it could be causing anxiety for the dog.

Aleks Woodroffe: 35:30

Yeah, I use the last chair for searches that I need them Because my dog, when he gets excited, he starts like jumping around and he jumps on his own feet and so we end up pulling off boots. So for us we put it on the last one. I also like it if it's raining outside and then I might go into a room. That otherwise would be fine, but because of the rain I'm worried about him slipping. I can put them on now. His feet are dry in the search, but I also use them for heat because every once in a while we're gonna have some searches outside on blacktop and technically it's fine. But they don't even have to think about their feet with boots on and they can just keep working as normal.

Jill Kovacevich: 36:07

Yeah, that sun can heat it up. Yep, and we saw it with Archer too, as he aged, as he's aging, right. A lot yep and this is a very gregarious, larger black lab, right yeah, and I think it's kind of the same thing that I was seeing in Zeke, where the brain is telling the body to move faster than the brain is comprehending, telling the body to move faster than the brain is comprehending.

Jill Kovacevich: 36:35

So we were seeing him like really slide out and scoot past hides, basically as he caught that edge and wanted to do that full body turn and I was just afraid he was going to start to, you know, injure himself blow an ACL, right yeah, exactly. So put booties on him and, granted, it has in some regards made him speed up, but it's in a straight run.

Aleks Woodroffe: 36:57

Yeah, yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 36:58

Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 36:59

And they don't have to be front only or they don't have to be all four. Right, you can do and achieve things with just two or four, yeah, so.

Jill Kovacevich: 37:07

Yay Go booties.

Aleks Woodroffe: 37:09

Go booties, all right. So that kind of concludes our environment section. The next section is dog type myths and these are. So before we dive into these, I find that myths like these are biases that we go in as humans and we start going my dog can't do this because blah, blah, blah. And so then we start putting limitations on our own dog because of whatever reasons, and these are more generalized myths. But I do find handlers have their own myths for their own dogs and that's based on just a bad experience and it might just be once, and then we start applying it for every search. So number one dog can't find odor when it's panting, true or false, false what I have observed, because majority of dogs are panting in Arizona, I don't even care what time of year it is.

Jill Kovacevich: 38:05

Majority of dogs are panting right, that's very true, they do great.

Aleks Woodroffe: 38:09

The dogs are doing fine. But what I find is the dogs can do absence and presence with odor, so they walk into an odor plume and they can recognize they're in odor. What I find is if they need directionals left side's hotter or right side is hotter they have to close their mouth and you will see that panting, panting, panting they're in, they're working, changes behavior. Then they need directional. They close their mouth, they find a direction. They might keep their mouth closed or they might pant a little bit and then close their mouth again to grab more information. So that's where you really see it as directional, with their mouth closed.

Jill Kovacevich: 38:41

But I have to say they can search no problem with their mouth open and with them panting and maybe the concept really comes from, because I think that you can't really say, oh, my dog is not working, odor, because of the panting right, because the dog has to pant. So what are you going to do? You're going to stop the dog from panting, right? You?

Jill Kovacevich: 39:05

can't yeah so it's just more of an observation of behavior, is really what it becomes right as opposed to and that's kind of what you're saying is we observe something and then it becomes like the thing that we kind of hang our hat on and say, oh, my dog couldn't get that hide because he was too hot and he was panting. Well, it may be that your dog couldn't get the hide because the energy level wasn't there.

Aleks Woodroffe: 39:28

He was too hot. He was too hot, right, and it really wasn't just because of the panting.

Jill Kovacevich: 39:40

Exactly, yeah, yep, totally Cool. Now what about the one? What about the one where we say um, my dog can't work high hides because they can't go up, can't?

Aleks Woodroffe: 39:48

stand on their back.

Jill Kovacevich: 39:49

You know that kind of thing.

Aleks Woodroffe: 39:51

I don't know, it doesn't matter. I'm teaching a lot of my dogs lately a lot of my students' dogs to find high hides with four feet on the floor and alert yeah so it's more than both again, the behavior, the communication, right.

Jill Kovacevich: 40:04

So it's either dog behavior and is that behavior so often? I think that all of this has to come back to why am I making the statement? And often it's because, as a handler, I don't have clarity as to what my dog is doing.

Aleks Woodroffe: 40:20

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 40:20

Right. And then secondarily oh wait, my training means my dog doesn't have clarity as to what is being asked. So if we just look at both of those pieces and we work at clarity, so if I want to say, oh my gosh, the you know, and this is another piece, that's further down, but the look back at me, right, I don't know what they he checked in too many times. I don't know what that look back at me is Well then we need to look at it just in terms of that, rather than say need to look at it just in terms of that, rather than say I don't, I don't, I don't count on or I don't credit or I don't find credibility, credibility in the look back, rather than say that it's. What is that communication mean to you and do you have clarity?

Jill Kovacevich: 41:08

And does the dog have clarity?

Aleks Woodroffe: 41:10

Yeah, totally so. A question came through is what's the difference between panting and chuffing? My experience, my understanding of chuffing is the mouth is closed and they're pulling through the center part of their nose and then they're pushing out the sides of the slits to disturb the surface and then they can pull up more information and often it sounds very guttural. So the mouth is closed typically with chuffing in my experience, and it sounds very guttural, like a lot of labs do it and you can just hear them like chugging away. But that's my experience with chuffing and my understanding of it, but maybe I'm a little wrong on that one.

Jill Kovacevich: 41:45

Well, but that's interesting though, because this goes back to that no one's right, no one's all right, no one's all wrong. Back to that no one's right, no one's all right and no one's all wrong right, Because it's all based on our dog and our observation of a dog. So that would be interesting next time you hear it with whatever dog would be to look at. Is the dog's mouth open or closed, right?

Aleks Woodroffe: 42:07

When they're doing it.

Jill Kovacevich: 42:08

Yeah, when they're doing it. And then, secondarily, ultimately, is it creating any disturbance in their ability to do search work? It should.

Aleks Woodroffe: 42:18

That's really what we're seeing, right. I often see chuffing happening in the sourcing for that last 12 inches or two feet of a hide. Normally that's where I see chuffing or hear it Right, and mine aren't super loud about it when they're doing it, but there are some dogs that are very loud, yeah, so Good question.

Jill Kovacevich: 42:37

Thanks, Kathy.

Aleks Woodroffe: 42:38

All right, yeah, good question, okay. Next one Dogs should find every hide in the search. Huh, true or false? True or false, all Okay, I'm just going to say in a trial, how many times do you find every single hide? Hopefully, more often than not, but did your dog break 100 of the?

Jill Kovacevich: 43:00

time. But if you didn't, did your dog break?

Aleks Woodroffe: 43:01

but no, because honestly, we would never have summit dogs. That's true, really, but isn't that what?

Jill Kovacevich: 43:06

we would never have summit dogs.

Aleks Woodroffe: 43:08

yes, yeah. And just like if your dog was hunting bunnies and the bunny went down the hole and they didn't get the bunny that day and you had to recall them and they came into the house and had dinner, did they want to go for bunnies again the next day? The answer is yes, your dog is always going to want to go hunt those bunnies. So like, just because they didn't get all the hides doesn't mean they don't want to play again.

Jill Kovacevich: 43:32

Well, and I really think that this comes down to training and trial strategies Ultimately, in training right in the real world, the dogs often are not finding everything that's out there potentially for them to find in training right, there's a lot more searching than there is finding to find and draining right, there's a lot more searching than there is finding In our sport, because we've built it based on number of hides found within the shortest period of time. Handlers then create this box that we must fit in right. That then says, oh, I just want to go to this next trial and, by God, this is exactly what I'm telling myself for this weekend god, this is exactly what I'm telling myself for this weekend, uh, and I want zero mistides, zero.

Jill Kovacevich: 44:17

I want to get every time. And yet this last trial I actually made and I was quite happy that I made it on this decision on the fly and felt very good about it. I left a hide that I could tell was going to take us a little bit longer to solve and because it was a can't go back, I made the decision, got basically, if you will, the bam bam ones right, yeah, three of those and went okay, let's you know Zeke's still working that that interior room, the can't go back went outside. I didn't say okay, let's go outside until he went around again and I saw him working it. But then I also looked at my stopwatch and went okay, so I have about and I've got a pretty large area outside.

Aleks Woodroffe: 44:58

Yeah it's huge and I had two minutes left in the search.

Jill Kovacevich: 45:02

Now, granted, I went out there and there was only one hide to be found, and we spent a lot of time just wandering around after we found that one hide, but I still feel good about having said you read that one well, which was go for. And, by the way, we got first place in that search, right yeah?

Aleks Woodroffe: 45:19

you did.

Jill Kovacevich: 45:19

So that decision to do that wasn't and it's not that first place told me I was made the right decision or I was. You know what I mean.

Aleks Woodroffe: 45:28

No, it just rewarded you for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that hide was not findable at that day. Yeah, in that moment.

Jill Kovacevich: 45:36

Within the time frame that we had allowed for the dogs to find it Exactly, because no one found the hide guys. So that even made it better for me to go. Oh see, exactly.

Aleks Woodroffe: 45:47

See, it was worth my time, yeah, so anyway, cool. Okay, what's next? All right, next one Fast working dogs are better. I hear that a lot. Actually, my dog's too slow. They're not very good at the sport, I don't know. We called this once a sneaky fast, right? Those slower dogs are sneaky fast because they get the faster times. I want a slower dog.

Jill Kovacevich: 46:07

I'm just closing my eyes, guys, and shaking my head. So I've had both right and I have said to both of them oh my God, digger, why can't you slow down and be more methodical, like Izzy? Then I've looked at Izzy and said oh my God, izzy, why can't you speed up and get more search area covered? So really it's just again. It goes back to love the dog you're with.

Aleks Woodroffe: 46:31

Totally, totally.

Jill Kovacevich: 46:32

It goes back to love the dog you're with, totally, oh my goodness, that dog has such tremendous capability to do training and trial in this sport. It's just amazing, and a really good example is even the difference in border collies. And that's just the breed that I run, guys, so I have a tendency to kind of focus on them and you'll see some that are wicked fast right and you'll see others that are literally and those typically quite frankly, it's more the ones that are methodical picking off the hides in order in which they were presented to them.

Jill Kovacevich: 47:06

That do fabulous in terms of if we measure trial by total number of hides found in the shortest amount of time.

Aleks Woodroffe: 47:15

Totally. But yes, both are great, both are great, they're both great.

Jill Kovacevich: 47:19

Embrace the dog, yeah, and if you, haven't had a chance to work with the other, even in class. Ask one of your friends to run your dog, or you run theirs. That are opposite. At least it gives you, on the end of that leash, that sensation of whoa right, whether it's whoa oh my God, slow down or whoa I'm about to step on the back end of this dog.

Aleks Woodroffe: 47:45

Yep, yep, All right. So kind of in the same boat a driven dog should be moving quickly. That's kind of the same, the same thing. You can have these methodical dogs that are totally driven. They are not distracted in the least, they are work in odor and they're not that fast.

Jill Kovacevich: 48:01

And that's okay. And this goes back to our definition of drive right. I think that sometimes what happens with the word drive is because, as human beings, what do we drive? We drive a car. What does a car have? It has an accelerator. If I want to have increased drive. What do I do?

Aleks Woodroffe: 48:24

I press on the accelerator right, so somehow we've equated that word to mean faster, right that drive is faster drive is higher.

Jill Kovacevich: 48:31

So now we get into the high aroused dog that actually has very little drive because there's no, they're just moving. Yeah, there's no location that they're moving towards, right, right, they're just like right. So, yeah, that we can agree on is that the concept of odor drive is your dog's training and motivation to find the thing which, in this case, would be our essential oil odors, the thing when we ask them to find it and where we ask them to find it.

Aleks Woodroffe: 49:11

And notice.

Jill Kovacevich: 49:11

I just said find it and where we ask them to find it. And notice, I just said find like three times, because ultimately, even though this is a searching game, it's a finding game, right, so it's built on both of those?

Aleks Woodroffe: 49:21

Yeah, totally All right.

Jill Kovacevich: 49:23

So, along the same line of like critical on our dogs, small dogs don't do as well well, I'm certain that Kathy will chime in on this one, and we've got lots of friends out there with those little ones whose entire life has been spent with the entire universe above their heads.

Aleks Woodroffe: 49:45

Above their head. Yep, the entire universe.

Jill Kovacevich: 49:47

They've been working elevated from the beginning. Right Steak on the counter. That dog knows exactly where the steak on the counter is, even if the dog can't see it.

Aleks Woodroffe: 49:56

Yep.

Jill Kovacevich: 49:57

Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 49:58

Just be thankful you can pick up your dog too. I can't wait for a little dog that I can pick up. Maybe Not worse, they're just different. Yeah, we just have to embrace the dog. You can't expect them to find the same points. And here's a really good example.

Jill Kovacevich: 50:14

What about a really large dog that literally lives its entire life as if it's very small? I swear the Great Danes do that right. They're masters in size.

Aleks Woodroffe: 50:37

And yet their whole concept of their being is very close and very small. So I also see very large dogs have a big disadvantage on low hides because it takes a lot of body weight transfer to keep their head down there and working a low hide or deeper, accessible type hides, maybe under a chair, they're stuck on the fringes because their nose is above the height of the chair.

Jill Kovacevich: 50:53

And it takes a lot more work. Their head is so big it won't even turn to get underneath there.

Aleks Woodroffe: 50:58

Yeah, yeah. So there is disadvantages on the top end too. It's just figuring out and embracing what your dog has and work it.

Jill Kovacevich: 51:05

Now, on the other hand too, we know that the skirt from any given hide can flow out and the dog, the small dog, will catch it further away. Right, because, right, because the three inches say the dog is only four inches at nose height off the ground.

Aleks Woodroffe: 51:22

Yeah, like a little Chihuahua Right. Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 51:24

He's going to have to work. They're going to have to work that high hide all the way out to where it is only four inches off the floor, all the way out to where it is only four inches off the floor versus your larger dog may actually be only two inches away from the hide at four feet right.

Jill Kovacevich: 51:41

So it's just all of that. So it's very fascinating. That's one thing I really love about all the hours spent training, judging and COing and even hosting. When I get to go in and watch searches is watching all the variations of all the dogs. We have guys who come in and do the same hide same, hides same. You know, not specific odor puzzle but general odor puzzle and solve it in so many different ways. It's so fascinating.

Aleks Woodroffe: 52:08

Totally, they work it their own way, cool, all right. The next one. It's so fascinating Totally, they work it their own way, cool. What's next? All right, the next one. Dogs should be started at blank age. Right, and you hear this like they should be imprinted at birth and like, as soon as they can, they're put with birch and they're smelling birch at the beginning. But that's not the hard part, right, dogs are working odor all the time, and so teaching them to do it under context, within the parameters of our game, but otherwise they know how to play it. They can start at any age. I've got dogs that started at 16 and they're playing for a few years, and then others that are babies. And why rush it?

Jill Kovacevich: 52:50

Go play and why rush it, Go play so, and that even goes to so when we're talking about the game, are we talking about introducing odor to dogs at a particular age? And I think that one of the things Alex and I did talk about was the fear periods, right?

Jill Kovacevich: 53:06

So just being conscious of those, and really those, fear periods. The context of it isn't just related to odor, I mean, but it is a concern, right. So are you going to expose your dog to odor when they have a sizable fear response to an event, whatever that may be?

Jill Kovacevich: 53:27

that, then handicaps their capacity, yeah, handicaps their capacity to do our sport or to be willing to. So they may recognize odor, but the value of the odor may be inhibited, at least in terms of what our thinking is for purposes of finding hides based on that fear response. But and I was going to mention that that fear response doesn't necessarily have to be too odor. So when you start them very young, the whole idea is to really, I think, watch your training and just make sure that you're staying within the learning moments of that dog at that age, right? So if you're dealing with, you know, the six week old puppy or the 10 week old puppy, that learning of whatever they're learning at that moment in time is so small.

Jill Kovacevich: 54:22

So yeah, it's so close and so we really that's more important, and you certainly you know some of the things that we say, oh, but I know what can really help. I'll just use primary or meaning food or toy. I'll just use something non-oil related not, you know, essential oil or target odor related but really your dog can encounter those fear periods even if they're just searching for a toy. Now does that mean so? For instance, I'm pretty convinced that Zeke has a fear response to our Judge Bob and that was definitely something that he experienced at maybe I think he was about two years old at an NW3. Might have been an NW2. Anyway, and he was toy reward at the time, right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 55:09

Yeah.

Jill Kovacevich: 55:09

Has that put him off of his ability to use his toy? No, right. Has it created a very long and lasting memory of Bob? Yes, yeah. Right, and we've even worked where he can be in the same room with Bob and he's fine. He can walk down a hall with Bob and he's fine, but put him in a search with Bob. Yeah, no, that's not a good idea. So what do I do? I have to, at some point in time, say it's okay, I will not put my dog in a search with Bob.

Aleks Woodroffe: 55:40

Yep, yep, and that's a decision that you make.

Jill Kovacevich: 55:43

Yep and Bob's great Don't think Bob's not great, bob's great, he is All right. He feels bad, but yeah, it is what it is, yeah.

Aleks Woodroffe: 55:50

All right, so the last one that I have for dogs, so the last one for this podcast, and then we'll break into the second and kind of let you guys know what we'll do, for the second one is staying in the search too long results in false alerts, right.

Jill Kovacevich: 56:11

So that's a myth? Yeah, and I've actually verbalized it, verbalized it even in the search Alert. No, oh, I stayed in too long. Notice, I didn't say my dog stayed in too long, I stayed in, I stayed in too long, and that was. My dog was communicating to me, there was nothing more to find, and then I stayed in the search. So is it reasonable that my dog then would lose clarity at that moment in time and start to get even more intense? And then I read all that intensity as being odor interest.

Aleks Woodroffe: 56:50

So then we also have the false alert. So I just did a Zoom private with a student of mine and she was struggling with vehicles, and so the example that we were kind of talking about before, which I think is exactly, is when they're in there too long, then they start figuring. Okay, maybe the rules of the game have changed just a little bit. So let me find you any molecule of odor in any collection, at any source. So in vehicles it's pooling on a neighboring vehicle, like I found you the one hide, we're still here. I kind of said can we leave, we're still here. So here's the next strongest point how about that?

Aleks Woodroffe: 57:24

Or they're in containers I've seen this a lot where the dog says, well, we're done, you still keep me here. Sometimes the dog says, well, we're done, you still keep me here. Sometimes I get rewarded for the last box. So let me just go to the last box in the line and give you a false alert, see if that helps. Or one with distractions in it, because I don't know what else to do. I need to get out of the search. So maybe I could give you a toy, maybe that will get me out of the search. So I see those kinds of things too, when we stay too long. So isn't that clearly operant behavior?

Jill Kovacevich: 57:49

So isn't that clearly operant behavior? Yeah, totally, when the dog starts to the search and lack of clarity by the dog of what the task is. So and, and you know, I think too often it's like um, we measure our skillset based on our trial level and our trial experience, as opposed to saying, oh geez, maybe our skill set is based on skills right.

Jill Kovacevich: 58:35

Yeah, and so, oh, I'm in an NW3 now. It's unknown number hides and even at Elite right At Elite really happens and people feel like Elite is such a relief from three, yet really it's more complex in the aspect of-.

Aleks Woodroffe: 58:51

It is.

Jill Kovacevich: 58:52

Everyone-.

Aleks Woodroffe: 58:52

Now you have to call finish.

Jill Kovacevich: 58:54

Yeah, but also the other piece is they're staying in much, they're staying in past that 30-second warning right, totally, and all I can hear is Jason Hang saying oh so you're leaving your search up to the timer? Huh.

Aleks Woodroffe: 59:07

Right.

Jill Kovacevich: 59:08

Yeah Right, as opposed to observing your dog.

Aleks Woodroffe: 59:22

But the point is that we have been conditioned as a handler to believe that there could be another hide.

Jill Kovacevich: 59:24

we may find right, because we missed one in the last one, right up to that last five seconds, right or whatever it is, and that could be the difference between, you know, just getting that one more hide Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 59:31

That could be the difference between you know, just getting that one more hide right. So here's an example that trial that we were both at recently. I had a time of 5.59.77 out of six minutes. I cut that time. We only found two hides and I wasn't going to leave a section that was hopefully an easy hide if we just needed to cover it. Covered, it Wasn't a hide Call finish, let's leave. But hey, I'm going to take that risk if I know my timing.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:00:02

Well, and that becomes a strategy, though, definitely at Summit and at Elite. And we're just learning it at Elite right, and I can't tell you how many times coming up the ranks with Digger, where I would go, finish alert. So after you've done that a few times, right, you recognize your dog is working something, but you're busy going.

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:00:18

Time's ticking, time's ticking don't get a timeout, don't get a timeout and really if you think about it.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:00:23

The whole search isn't based on it being right or wrong. If you get a timeout, Take the half a value If you're working. So the deduction for a timeout in NACSW Elite is minus half the half of value if you're working. So the deduction for a timeout in any csw elite is minus half the value of a high. So it's not even like the full high right nope, just half just half, so you know I can remember the first time as a no yeah I can remember the first time I got a time out I was just like, oh my god digger, we timed.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:00:50

Then I went oh Lord, it was only half a value of a hide and we got four hides. So we're just down. You know, we got three and a half right. So I think that some of that is really come into grips with working, doing search, work and finding right and working. To then say to yourselves and look at your dog and say what are the skills we need to work on, not just how do I get? And measuring your skills by I want to get all the hides in the shortest amount of time Right.

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:01:21

There's not time Not get any nose.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:01:23

Because that's often when you ask people what are your goals for this trial? The first thing they say is no nose and I want to. I don't want to leave any hides behind. What does that mean? Yeah, yeah, it probably means you want to use better odor drive training with your dog so your dog has absolute clarity. You will also want to do a lot of odor observation so that you understand your dog's odor drive and communication.

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:01:49

Exactly Right, it's, but it's big. That's a lot of topics, it is, yeah, very big.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:01:55

Cool so.

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:01:57

That was fun.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:01:58

All right. So what we're going to do, guys, is we're going to break this up into another podcast on. I'm going to try to say it Are you ready? Mythbusters, that's just one of those words that if you say it really fast, it becomes myth butthurst, right? Yes, it does your tongue like myth butthurst. It's like you said. You feel like you're like six years old trying to talk through, you know, without your two front teeth, but anyway. So this next time around, what are we going to talk about?

Aleks Woodroffe: 1:02:25

We are going to talk about myths from handlers, handlers. So things like asking show me, or maybe the belief that you can never stop moving your feet or my dog lies, what else do I have? Feo is a bailout, or maybe handler is the weak link.

Jill Kovacevich: 1:02:44

It's always us Right, so we've got some good topics in there, yeah, and part of what we want to do is, just again, we're dispelling the myths so that we can motivate all of us to build more training around clarity for ourselves and clarity for our dogs. And that's pretty much it, guys, for our podcast for April. So we're going to be getting this next one to you, hopefully in the next couple of weeks as well. Thanks everybody for joining us.